D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[pemerton]

What does this mean?

PC build is all about choosing what "playing piece" a player wants to bring to the game.

Deciding whether or not your PC has the will to live is about choosing whether to stick with the current playing piece, or to be required to have a new one.

 

[Zardnaar]

I count AD&D dual wielding as "cheese", in the sense that it's a poorly-thought through rule that should be describing a relatively marginal fighting style difference, but that actually hugely changes the effectiveness of a melee-oriented character.

Giving up a shield is actually a big deal in AD&D since magical ones are fairly common.

You can still get 3/2 attacks with weapon specialization in 2E. More if you throw darts and daggers. While using a shield.

 

[pemerton]

I mean to me it is rather obvious that manoeuvres are things the character knowingly decides to use. Like they could in-character say "I'll disarm the guard" etc.

But being able to disarm the guard depends upon more than just saying "I'll disarm the guard." It depends upon openings, sword play etc - at least some of which are under the control of the guard!

And when it comes to something like Menacing Strike, I'm not really sure what it means to say "OK, now I'm going to be particularly fierce!" Like, is the PC putting on their scary face?

Then, to be frank, you're just bad at immersion. You absolutely can feel the character's feelings.

But what is the direction of causation?

I mean, it's straightforward enough to make an authorial decision that my character flees and then to cultivate in oneself the appropriate feeling of fear etc (of course remembering that it's pretend).

But that's not the same as deciding that my PC flees not for external reasons, but simply because this is what my PC would feel.

 

[pemerton]

Giving up a shield is actually a big deal in AD&D since magical ones are fairly common.

They're not that common at first level, though. And losing 1 AC to add 50%-ish DPR is a pretty good trade much of the time!

 

[Zardnaar]

They're not that common at first level, though. And losing 1 AC to add 50%-ish DPR is a pretty good trade much of the time!

True but you also soaked up massive penalties to hit.

Without the fighters handbook anyway. Throw darts and use a shield PHB only.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But being able to disarm the guard depends upon more than just saying "I'll disarm the guard." It depends upon openings, sword play etc - at least some of which are under the control of the guard!

Yeah, and that's why there are die rolls involved, odds of which are influenced by both the attackers and defenders stats.

And when it comes to something like Menacing Strike, I'm not really sure what it means to say "OK, now I'm going to be particularly fierce!" Like, is the PC putting on their scary face?

Possibly. They're certainly intentionally doing something.

But what is the direction of causation?

I mean, it's straightforward enough to make an authorial decision that my character flees and then to cultivate in oneself the appropriate feeling of fear etc (of course remembering that it's pretend).

But that's not the same as deciding that my PC flees not for external reasons, but simply because this is what my PC would feel.

Sure. I think that if you're properly immersing in the character you're doing the latter. Granted, the external reasons probably contribute to how the character feels.

 

[Baron Opal II]

The vast majority of things that actually look like "real life" aren't on the table. So...what exactly do you think is left of real life, once we've replaced all the depressing and pointless and grating parts with fantastic elements? Because I'm pretty sure the only things that are left are, as I said, the ones compatible with drama.

Yes, mainly exploration, for me.

Real life isn't limited to the urban rat race. Crossing Antarctica, finding ruins in Brazil, exploring caves in the Alps, excavating lost settlements in the Sahel, finding a path from the source of the Missouri River to the Pacific Ocean are all sources of exciting adventure.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, mainly exploration, for me.

Real life isn't limited to the urban rat race. Crossing Antarctica, finding ruins in Brazil, exploring caves in the Alps, excavating lost settlements in the Sahel, finding a path from the source of the Missouri River to the Pacific Ocean are all sources of exciting adventure.

I get what you're saying, but, the problem is, in real life, crossing Antarctica, for example, is filled with tedious monotony. It's an endless slog across a frozen wasteland where you basically doing the exact same thing, day after day, until you reach your goal.

Which doesn't exactly make for compelling game play. There's a reason that so many systems abstract that sort of thing in order to make it compelling at the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

(2) Your preferred sort of D&D did exactly what you criticise WotC for doing to the earlier, classic version of the game.

How? The game remained very compatible from the beginning all the way to the end of 2e. Lore was pretty compatible too for the most part.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

For me, there are a few assumptions in the game called D&D.

There is challenge and my choices and luck can overcome or fail to overcome the challenge.

I want it to evoke interesting mental images. I want it to lead me to imagine the fantasy genre as I play it between rolling dice and tracking things.

Balance matters to me only insofar as it effects these things. If the game is too easy and there is little to lose I don’t see the point. If the characters and rules don’t support my mind’s eye, they have failed.

Balance is a personal preference which is not superior to a relative indifference to it. People want their choices to matter almost universally. Where things differ is in how much they are worries about relative! Impact on the game world and outcomes.

For me, the challenge and immersion trump balance. Some people who probably liked 4e a ton more than I did seem to relish balance.

I don’t think the casual player care or even recognizes balance most of the time. And frankly, I don’t think there is a balance problem for the vast majority of players until higher levels.