D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Thomas Shey]

Who's they? Sounds like a fun group of players!

For people who like that sort of thing, I'm sure it is. Its just a mistake to assume most players will be among them.

 

[Maxperson]

So all classes have to be magical now?


See above.

To do supernatural things? Yes. Martials don't typically get to the point where they would be doing supernatural things until mid to high levels, though. And I have no problem with them training martially to the point where they exceed natural limitations, but once they do exceed natural limitations, they are in the supernatural realm.

Think of Zoro in One Piece who trains martially until he can swing his sword and cut things in half from 100 or more yards away. Or the samurai in One Piece who can cut any fire, even dragon fire, in half with his sword. Those are magical acts achieved through martial training.

 

[Maxperson]

Except that it's also experiences you HAVE. As in, YOU decide whether you feel terrified or galvanized by a horrible event. Again: that is YOU, the PLAYER, declaring what the CHARACTER does or thinks or feels or believes. That choice cannot even in principle be rooted in the character, because no character has the ability to sit for five minutes and think about whether they WANT to be terrified or galvanized.


So....you've....just described something where you don't get to decide it IRL....but you DO get to decide it in-game...?

This conflicts with everything you've just said.

You're conflating in-game with in-fiction.

If we can't decide it in real life, a lot of people believe that characters shouldn't be able to decide it in the fiction. For example, I had no ability to choose my gender or what race I was born into. In the fiction my PC has no ability to choose his gender(other than some very specific elves) or race what race he is born into.

Your example above of feeling terrified above is the same. If I here in real life encounter something terrifying, I might be terrified, or I might choose to overcome that fear and push forward anyway. In the fiction that is exactly what the PC is doing as well. There is no effective difference between the game fiction and what happens in real life. That there is a player deciding for the PC doesn't change that. It's a game, the player has to decide for the PC, but in the fiction it will 100% be the PCs decision or indecision, depending on what the player decides.

In-game =/= in-fiction.

 

[Maxperson]

I am saying that the designers should design the game so that optimizing it IS playing it. That the designers should be making a game where using and leveraging the rules IS the fun the game is designed to produce.

Why? Why should optimization be the one true way to play D&D? Also, define optimization, because it means different things to different players.

 

[Maxperson]

Then it's a miscommunication. I don't see @Lanefan 's attitude as actively hostile or antagonist to players.

Gee, thanks!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Gee, thanks!

He mentioned you, but didn't provide any examples to refute.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Which is kinda my point. The real world adventures feature very long, extended periods of boredom and tedium punctuated by very brief periods of terror and excitement.

Your point about the dire penguins is exactly on point. The dire penguins attack, not because of any real world inspiration, but, because we want an exciting game. ...

(The penguins were kind of a joke.)

Okay.

Are you ready to spend three weeks doing absolutely nothing except trying not to die of disease?

Because if you've ever skipped over that boring stuff in order to get to the actually interesting parts of exploration, you are already excising the real-life parts in favor of the dramatic ones.

Well, yes. It's at least a concern if not an active obstacle.

I am apparently not communicating, or neither of you have read exploration accounts or adventure fiction based on real experience.

The party enters a terrain or environment outside the player's experience.
The DM clarifies what precautions they take. Information is provided based on character class, level, access to local experts, available gear, reinforcement of how spells mitigate issues. "Gotchas" are minimized or eliminated- "poor choices" are actually embracing risk for whatever reason. For example, not buying wool and furs or light linen and silk clothing and keeping with layered cotton when going into extreme cold or heat. The players may not wish to spend the coin or barter for them. The players are informed by the local guide as to their utility.

5-10 minutes of narration by the DM as to the first handful of days in the new environment. The beauty of the environment is emphasized. Unusual flora and fauna from our temperate clime is noted. Clockwork-regular rainfall or the total lack of clouds and wide temperature swings are noted. Minor or trivial obstacles that are overcome with gear or skill are noted. This last bit is, at least to a degree, foreshadowing of greater threats to come. It particularly severe environments there is always some impairment. You might lose a d4 hit points a day if you choose to travel. How important is speed? Are you willing to exhaust all your X level spells to protect the party? Unless you are a native you aren't going to be at 100% while travelling. And there are some places the natives aren't at 100% either.

The first encounter. This could be a combat of local hostiles or an environmental obstacle. Sandstorm, blizzard, profound cold, heat, or rain. Violent thunderstorms destroying nearby trees; not only do you need to avoid the blast but also falling trees and wooden shrapnel from trees that explode as their sap instantly boils from the lighting strike. How did the party prepare, how do they react? Importantly, this is not a single skill check or spell. This is an encounter, and treated as such. However, you're not fighting a creature but navigating the danger that nature provides. Game-wise, this takes the same time as a combat encounter and can be harrowing. Or, relatively minor like an easy combat encounter. Crossing a river swollen with rain from upstream as an example. Potentially quite dangerous, but also relatively straight-forward if not easy to manage.

The second stretch of travel. How does the encounter affect the status quo? Was key gear consumed, sacrificed, or lost? Does the party have to stay put for a couple days and utilize skills or spend magic to recover exhaustion or steadily eroded hit points? Does the time required to recuperate impact food supplies? If there are spiders the size of your hand that like the shelter of your tents as much as you do, or their prey is attracted to the shelter, has the encounter changed your ability to deal with that nuisance? Are you out of your first level pest repellent spells, or are you going to have to sacrifice a third level slot to get the same effect? Is this the night where that will make a difference since you are now camping next to a nest of chon-chons?

The second encounter. Often, for me, if the first was environmental the second is an encounter with local dangerous critters. The baseline environment can have particular effect on a fight. Difficult terrain, always have 50% cover from dense trees, &c.

Third stretch of travel. Long-term issues with the environment develop. Further narration of the beauty of the landscape, but as characters are now more experienced they can perceive the danger that is masked by it.

Depending on the length of travel there may be other discoveries. If they are going to travel for a couple months through the deep desert they will encounter something different along the way. Magical anomalies, ruins uncovered by a sandstorm, a wise and talkative jaguar curious about the strange two-legs wandering through its hunting grounds. A variety of challenges and obstacles maintains interest. You're not going to have twenty combats in a row, you're not going to have an excess of Man vs. Nature encounters in a row.

So, yes, the party is going to worry about avoiding disease for the three weeks trekking through the Green Hell. They are going to listen to the locals and/or lean on their skills and magic. They're going to have to think about the last dose of wound ointment when they've gone through their fourth combat against killer moas. It is not the only thing the have to think about; there are combats and ruins and strange happenings to marvel at. But it is most definitely more than two skill checks per day of travel. Because, yes, that would be tedious.

There are many stories, and drama takes many forms.

 

[Vaalingrade]

To do supernatural things? Yes.

Once more with feeling:

Supernatural != magical

 

[TwoSix]

So all classes have to be magical now?

I've done a lot of consideration on the topic; my personal opinion is that D&D-milieu games would be improved if "classes" were all explicitly diegetic elements with an obvious layer of supernatural capability.

Even a "Fighter" should have a level of supernatural capability and resilience that is obvious within the fiction.

 

[Maxperson]

Once more with feeling:

Supernatural != magical

It doesn't = mundane, either. I'm okay with it not being explicitly called magic, but it really needs to be called out as supernatural. Not mundane. Not extraordinary, which is still mundane.