D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Thomas Shey]

Definition of opinion because it keeps coming up in this thread for some reason.

"a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

The key phrase there is "not necessarily". To apply it here assumes no one can base their argument on fact or knowledge. Not a premise I accept in this context.

So the original question remains. If we dismiss popularity and player retention as "worthless" evidence wise, does that mean we are just going to rely solely on conjecture?

I don't think its just conjecture. I doubt seriously we will come to any agreement on that, however.

 

[pemerton]

Ideas of beauty and ideals have varied over time and by culture and will continue to do so. To the ancient Greeks, a large male member was undesirable. Throughout much of history being overweight was an ideal. Beauty and what we consider desirable is subjective.

Your premise does not support your conclusion.

Beliefs about the nature of the world and the cosmos have varied over time and by culture. That does not entail that the truth or falsity of general relativity is subjective.

Beliefs about the best way to raise children have varied over time and by culture. That does not entail that propositions about how it is good and bad for parents to treat their children are all purely subjective.

Beliefs about the permissible forms of marriage have varied over time and by culture, but this does not entail that changes to marriage norms have nothing to be said about them other than we changed our minds.

Beauty is very subjective.

<snip>

We all have different tastes

What people desire is (obviously) a subjective matter. That does not entail that what is desirable or valuable is subjective, and it certainly doesn't entail that these things are subjective in the way that tastes are.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Beer flavored water on ice?

When you want beer flavored water, nothing else will do! Unless you like something else better. Wait…

 

[pemerton]

It is flawed. But we have no other metric.

Critical analysis doesn't rely on metrics.

An example can be given from another field of inquiry: history. If you read modern history texts, you can find near-endless debate on the proper explanation of the causes of the First World War. There is no agreed metric, and no uniform opinion.

But it hardly follows that the First World War had no cause, or that it was a random event, or that what caused it is a purely subjective matter.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Critical analysis doesn't rely on metrics.

An example can be given from another field of inquiry: history. If you read modern history texts, you can find near-endless debate on the proper explanation of the causes of the First World War. There is no agreed metric, and no uniform opinion.

But it's an instant win to declare the shocking reality that that opinion someone stated.... is an opinion. And they didn't plaster 'IMHO' before every word.

 

[pemerton]

But it's an instant win to declare the shocking reality that that opinion someone stated.... is an opinion. And they didn't plaster 'IMHO' before every word.

Some of my opinions are H and some less so!

When it comes to the analysis of knowledge, methodology, value, desire/preference and the relationships between them, I'm not in the realm of humility. These are things I've devoted a good chunk of my professional life to studying and teaching.

Anyway, I don't think anyone asserts that whether pineapple is yummier than banana is anything but a question of taste. But the notion that this sort of question exhausts the analysis of quality and value isn't plausible.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's beers all the way down.

It's the coming up part I want to minimize.

 

[Zardnaar]

You know…it depends on the goal. Cheap macro brews on ice are…nice.

Can be. Decent macro beers exist though at least of you like basic lagers. If you want to get pickled for $12 it's one way of doing it.

 

[Oofta]

Your premise does not support your conclusion.

Beliefs about the nature of the world and the cosmos have varied over time and by culture. That does not entail that the truth or falsity of general relativity is subjective.

Beliefs about the best way to raise children have varied over time and by culture. That does not entail that propositions about how it is good and bad for parents to treat their children are all purely subjective.

Beliefs about the permissible forms of marriage have varied over time and by culture, but this does not entail that changes to marriage norms have nothing to be said about them other than we changed our minds.

What people desire is (obviously) a subjective matter. That does not entail that what is desirable or valuable is subjective, and it certainly doesn't entail that these things are subjective in the way that tastes are.

People can define measurements and standards that they deem define quality and then measure things against those measurements and standards. You can measure the nutritional content, caloric intake, saturated fats in a meal but one person would look at a meal from a highly rated French restaurant and claim it was a quality meal while a nutritionist would say that it had way too many calories, saturated fat and lacked fiber and essential nutrients. Who is right? The both are! Based on what they define as quality.

There is no objective measurement of quality, there is only objective measurements of things we can actually measure.

 

[pemerton]

There is no objective measurement of quality, there is only objective measurements of things we can actually measure.

So you regard social events - the First World War, for instance; or the transformation in so many parts of the world from pastoralist and peasant economies to industrial market economies - as having no objective causes?

Because their causes are not amenable to measurement. Yet these things seem to have happened, and to have impacted the lives of billions of people!