D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[abirdcall]

I doubt it will change many minds, but at least there's an answer.

That just means that a Scroll of Protection, which does not involve casting a spell, can be activated with a bonus action. It specifically says it requires a magic action to activate. Spell scrolls do not.

When a magic item allows you to cast a spell you cast it using its casting time unless it says otherwise.

The magic item doesn't require a magic action to activate. It gets activated, and then you cast a spell using the spell's casting time.

 

[Eric Olson1]

Now that we have a copy of the 2024 DMG I do want to point out that scrolls according to the DMG are both used ("using a scroll") and "activated".

This should put to rest a substantial number of the arguments against using this with fast hands and whether or not they are used and whether or not activating is a different kind of magic action.

Cool, do you have the quote? What I am reading on D&D beyond does not use those words: "Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time. Once the spell is cast, the scroll crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll isn’t lost." (ah, so if multiple people read it, the first one to cast gets the power)

I get no more information from the DMG to help decide. However these are interesting:

• Wand of Magic Missiles - expend charges and "cast" the spell [this is not good as written for Fast Hands]
• Ring of spell storing - this is cast as well. It would seem this would fall into the same category as any of the wands (no cantrips though)

* scimitar of speed - You can make an attack on your bonus action. No restriction on having to take the attack action. This, as far as I can see, would let you bonus attack with potential sneak attack, then hold your attack action & use your reaction to take another sneak attack before your next turn.

If there is some text I am missing, that would be great to know. It is a DM judgement call at this point for me. It is not game-breaking for a pure thief, but a DM-Player conversation would make things able to be more fun.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I want to point out that enspelled weapons are not activated. They only allow the casting of spells. The general section mentions that they use their normal casting times and the lowest caster levels

Potions are always require a bonus action.

Scrolls are strange. With the DMG in hand, it gets unclearer.

Scrolls are not used nor activated. They are read.
And the spell cast by the scroll requires the normal casting time.
So I guess you can read it both ways. Back to transitivity. Does the word require refer to the spell cast or the scroll. Lets see how it goes.

At least enspelled weapons and staffs are clearly not covered by fast hands.

I don't have problems with scimitar of speed.

 

[ECMO3]

Cool, do you have the quote?

Chapter 7, Treasure. underlined is mine, bold is WOTC:

Using a Scroll. Scrolls are consumable items. Unleashing the magic in a scroll requires the user to read the scroll. When its magic has been invoked, the scroll can’t be used again. Its words fade, or it crumbles into dust.

Any creature that can understand a written language can read a scroll and attempt to activate it unless its description notes otherwise.

So according to the DMG a scroll is clearly both activated and used.

Also spells cast from items are described under the section labeled "Activating a Magic Item":

Activating a Magic Item

It usually takes a Magic action to activate a magic item. The item’s user might also need to do something special. The description of each item category or individual item details how an item is activated. Certain items use the following rules for their activation.

Command Word ....​

Consumable Items ....​

Spells Cast from Items​

Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description notes otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires Concentration. Many items, such as Potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with its usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.

...


Finally, I will note that crafting a scroll using the DMG rules requires proficiency in both Arcana and Calligraphy supplies and everyone assisting on it must have BOTH of those proficiencies. So it would have to be a very specialized Rogue to create an unlimited supply of scrolls to use with Fast Hands. Crafting a weapon with a spell requires a specific tool proficiency based on the weapon type and Arcana.

 

[abirdcall]

Maybe this is more clear:

You don't cast a spell which then activates the Spell Scroll.

You activate the Spell Scroll (no action required) which then allows you to cast a spell using the spell's normal casting time.

You don't cast the spell as a bonus action because you have already activated the scroll and this is the effect of that activation.

Magic items either require a magic action to activate or they don't and they simply instruct you what happens when you do activate it.*

In 2014 a Spell Scroll cost an action to read and cast the spell that it contained. Now you activate it (no action required) and it allows you to cast the spell at its usual casting time. You also no longer need an action to read it, just to actually cast the spell. The difference is on purpose. They avoided "magic action" from the items that allow you to cast a spell once activated.

*a few specify bonus action or reaction.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The paragraph on top of the crafting spell scrolls tells us, that the rules for creatin slots are in the PHB. Only other scrolls need both proficiencies.

 

[Eric Olson1]

I read though the new magic item information from the DMG. The way it is presented, it seems to only reinforce the core definition of a magic action: "When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature/magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated."
I agree with ad_hock that some items require "the magic action to activate" and some don't (they have more specific rules)

"It usually takes a Magic action to activate a magic item. ... Certain items use the following rules for their activation."
(and there it details the specific rules for "spells cast from items")
"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. ... The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration,"
It goes on to state that some "spells cast from" items do bypass the casting and directly give the effect. (like potions)

So there is clearly a defined (and used) mechanism that lets an item give a spell effect without casting. So it is a deliberate choice that spell scrolls, enspelled wands, and rings of spell storing do NOT invoke that mechanism. Why make the distinction if it were not important?

In fact the specific item descriptions seem to align with the description of spell casting in the new PHB. To cast a spell you meet a set of requirements (spell in head, spell slots, v/s/m components), some of these are met with items.
Then the spell is cast using it's casting time (unless specified differently) Reading a scroll puts the spell in your head, energizes the spell slot(s) and proves the material components (but not the v/s)

But the rules clearly give the DM the ability to create item(wands/spell scrolls) that act like potions/scroll of protection. Or you could house rule that some items default that way. (or you can craft it that way).

 

[ECMO3]

"When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature/magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated."

"It usually takes a Magic action to activate a magic item. ... Certain items use the following rules for their activation."
(and there it details the specific rules for "spells cast from items")
"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. ... The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration,"

The problem with this "OR" interpretation quoted on top is the specific rules you are referencing are for "their activation" noted in red and underlined in your quote.

The rules for items that spells are cast from are specifically for the "activation" of those items.

If there in fact some items that require "activation" and other items that don't require "activation"; items that "spells [are] cast from" fall into the category of requiring activation because spells cast from items "use the following rules for their activation"

So items that cast spells from are in fact "activated" according to the wording in the DMG. They are "activated" using the very rules you cite.

So there is clearly a defined (and used) mechanism that lets an item give a spell effect without casting. So it is a deliberate choice that spell scrolls, enspelled wands, and rings of spell storing do NOT invoke that mechanism.

Wands and Rings that cast spells use the rules for "activation [of] ....spells cast from items".

Scrolls use the specific (and different) rules for "using" and "activating" scrolls.

The fact that scrolls are also items that cast spells falls under specific vs general. Scrolls use the specific rules for scrolls which supesede the the general rules for items that cast spells.

Finally, I will note that Fast Hands does not mention "activation" or "casting time". Fast Hands has the verbiage "use" which is also the wording for Spell Scrolls in the DMG. I think specifying "use" for Fast Hands and then specifying that verbiage again in the DMG section on spell scrolls is a deliberate and purposeful intent to let Thieves use scrolls with Fast Hands. There are other mechanics they could have put in the PHB for Fast Hands and other verbiage they could have put for scrolls in the DMG.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I read though the new magic item information from the DMG. The way it is presented, it seems to only reinforce the core definition of a magic action: "When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature/magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated."
I agree with ad_hock that some items require "the magic action to activate" and some don't (they have more specific rules)

"It usually takes a Magic action to activate a magic item. ... Certain items use the following rules for their activation."
(and there it details the specific rules for "spells cast from items")
"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. ... The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration,"
It goes on to state that some "spells cast from" items do bypass the casting and directly give the effect. (like potions)

So there is clearly a defined (and used) mechanism that lets an item give a spell effect without casting. So it is a deliberate choice that spell scrolls, enspelled wands, and rings of spell storing do NOT invoke that mechanism. Why make the distinction if it were not important?

In fact the specific item descriptions seem to align with the description of spell casting in the new PHB. To cast a spell you meet a set of requirements (spell in head, spell slots, v/s/m components), some of these are met with items.
Then the spell is cast using it's casting time (unless specified differently) Reading a scroll puts the spell in your head, energizes the spell slot(s) and proves the material components (but not the v/s)

But the rules clearly give the DM the ability to create item(wands/spell scrolls) that act like potions/scroll of protection. Or you could house rule that some items default that way. (or you can craft it that way).

I think you are spot on.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Mmm. Still firmly in the 'ask your GM ahead of time to know how your features work' camp. Kind of expected that.