D&D (2024) I have the DMG. AMA!

[Vaalingrade]

You know, I think that the deity discussion has definitely, very definitely, reached the point that it should have its own thread, so that other discussions and questions about the DMG are drowned out.

The drowning out of discussion started at like page 14. Sadly, that's Enworld.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Which do not normally include the DM saying "I have altered the contract. Pray I don't alter it further. Literally pray to your god." and stripping away the powers of a cleric or paladin. And haven't since 2008. The problem here is that the DM doesn't want to stick to the implicit contract of letting the PCs control their character. So the entitled DM feels they can abuse rule 0 and strip away the player's ability to have a significant impact in the gameworld compared to their peers.

If the DM has absolute control over the setting (rather than just overwhelming) and won't let the characters make up e.g. where they came from then by the same token they should stay on their side of the line and let the players have control over their characters. And not use divine intervention to punish players.

I don't agree with your interpretation. Who's altering any contract? The DM isn't changing anything the player didn't agree to when they made their PC. This is all setting level. At no point does the DM take control of the PCs actions.

 

[TwoSix]

But both options are still presented as equally valid choices. One is just more popular than the other.

Both are "valid", but certainly within my lifetime, operating a manual has moved from a skill most people were expected to have to being primarily a skill held by older people and specialists.

That change in expectation over time is a pretty good analogue to the changes in the defaults expected for the player base for D&D.

 

[Scribe]

They weren't Gen X RPers either.

You don't think Gen X has a far higher degree of exposure to, and natural literacy in traditional old testament Christian world views?

Not that we held the beliefs, but that we had exposure and understanding that Gen Z doesn't?

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean, I haven't watched wrestling in over 25 years, and I know what kayfabe is. I'm assuming I absorbed it reading an article about pro wrestling somewhere.

I honestly didn't know what it was until decades after leaving the fandom because there were no more costumed freaks with fun schticks, only a bunch of angry 90's antiheroes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, and that choice greatly flattens what stories you can tell based on faith because in such worlds, religious faith is replaced by personal faith since you can never not be certain.

Then we know what settings you'd rather play in and run. Hurray!

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, I haven't watched wrestling in over 25 years, and I know what kayfabe is. I'm assuming I absorbed it reading an article about pro wrestling somewhere.

"Kayfabe" is basically wrestlers maintaining the illusion that they're all super competitive and the matches are "real". The tension between this performative illusion and having actual real working issues leak into the shows provides a lot of the metatext that wrestling fans enjoy discussing.

I've never had any interest in wrestling, sorry.

 

[Vaalingrade]

At no point does the DM take control of the PCs actions.

If I tell you there will be consequences for taking more than one piece of Halloween candy, then hold up a hammer, I'm certainly taking control of your actions. That's what I meant by threat of metaphyscial force.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The gods don’t need to be non-existent to be uncaring or non-interventionist. The majority of games are in homebrew settings. Avoiding meddling moralistic deities is good advice for word-builders.

It's just a choice. I wouldn't say either stance is good or bad advice.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If I tell you there will be consequences for taking more than one piece of Halloween candy, then hold up a hammer, I'm certainly taking control of your actions. That's what I meant by threat of metaphyscial force.

And I told you that is the case for any in-setting authority.