D&D (2024) I have the DMG. AMA!

[Vaalingrade]

D&D has them, last I checked we were discussing D&D not a generic unspecified TTRPG

You said fantasy worlds, not D&D. You said fantasy worlds have classes that fall into a certain slot. That's what I was responding to.

probably mostly warriors / knights, thieves, priests and wizards (or a more generic spellcaster), D&D did not invent that

Those are archetypes not classes. The Knights of the Round Table, the Peers of Charlemagne, the Three Musketeers, etc didn't all have the same capabilities. They were knights because they were dudes what served a king, not because they were armored horsemen who could issue challenges.

And don't get me started on wizards. In most stories, a wizard is born, not made or taught in the first place. And in the codifier, LotR, wizards are angels. As in direct servants of the gods. As in super-priests.

 

[TwoSix]

You can't miss what you didn't have. Who other than a few grognard DMs does it lead to a negative play experience for?

I do wonder if the desire to have some penalty mechanics in the game originates from a general dislike of having metagame discussions during a session?

Instead of saying "Hey, some of the actions your character is taking don't seem to match the picture we all had of your character, is that something we should explore in game?", there's just a general warning of "Your god is giving you dark omens, and might start taking your power if you don't shape up."

 

[Vaalingrade]

Not that I would ever play anything like a Paladin of the Blood of Vol - when not being read in to what the inner circle of the cult actually believes...

The thing is that the new classes I want are ones that push the boat out. I don't want the tsunami of 3.X or 4e classes that were all relatively minor variations on the theme; I don't want another full caster or another half caster unless we make the artificer use pact magic mechanics (I think that Infusions instead of Invocations and pact-preparation would work well). But things like a shapeshifter yes please.

At least we can agree on no more half-casters. We could use like three fewer already. I hate that concept.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I do wonder if the desire to have some penalty mechanics in the game originates from a general dislike of having metagame discussions during a session?

I think --and I'd love to have lamefan chime in on this as they're the one that put forth this idea to me in the first place-- it's more as part of the gambling aspect of older D&D.

You pays your money, you takes your chances. for gambling to be a thrill, you need a bunch of varied fail states. And all play being skilled play including RP, you are effectively gambling while roleplaying your character's actions and thus have to have a Whammie waiting for you in case you trigger the DM's trap card of not playing the way they think you should. because again, in certain older styles, you're playing the DM as much as the rest of the game.

 

[TwoSix]

I think --and I'd love to have lamefan chime in on this as they're the one that put forth this idea to me in the first place-- it's more as part of the gambling aspect of older D&D.

You pays your money, you takes your chances. for gambling to be a thrill, you need a bunch of varied fail states. And all play being skilled play including RP, you are effectively gambling while roleplaying your character's actions and thus have to have a Whammie waiting for you in case you trigger the DM's trap card of not playing the way they think you should. because again, in certain older styles, you're playing the DM as much as the rest of the game.

That makes sense. I love randomness, like rolling up a character from a set of tables, but I hate gambling. Other than the deck of many things, but I see that more as "let's inject some chaos" then gambling.

 

[Azzy]

Since I started playing in '87, this hasn't been an issue that's come up.

People, go play how you want to play (as long as you have buy-in from the rest of the group), stop expecting the game to cater to or validate you—because no matter your preference, the game rules are going to clash with your preference at some point (and this is nothing new to the current edition, because there's been some crap rules in the game since day one). So do what we've been doing the entire time and alter the game to suit you and your group.

 

[Neonchameleon]

At least we can agree on no more half-casters. We could use like three fewer already. I hate that concept.

I don't hate the concept outside disliking tracking slots in general. I do however think it's a hard one to implement and of the three we have only the paladin does it passably well.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I don't hate the concept outside disliking tracking slots in general. I do however think it's a hard one to implement and of the three we have only the paladin does it passably well.

I mean, I hate tracking slots too, but the whole idea of half casters is marred by the fact that D&D was never all that good at making up for the other half and has actively gotten worse at doing so because it no longer knows how to grant non-magical abilities.

 

[tetrasodium]

I've seen a player rave about the awesome time his paladin fell & another player chimed in backing up the story with agreement about how awesome it was. I'll call said player Billy.

Spoiler: storytime mode activate

I had moved Probably about 70-80 miles north giving me a few miles closer & many minutes shorter southbound commute to work. Somewhere around 2006 or so I got invited to join a 2e group being (re)started by a friend of a friend & met up with said group.

A few of us were there early & started talking about pasty experiences. One of those stories was the time Billy's paladin fell.... Billy had been playing the first paladin anyone in the group had played because they had just recently come out & were hard to qualify for with must be a human who had a high stat in multiple attribs & it was one of the first couple sessions with said paladin so nobody really knew what to expect...

That newness & unfamiliarity is important, don't forget it. During the adventure Billy finds a cursed I forget... a ring belt helmet or maybe necklace] of alignment changing. Not really being sure of what would happen & not wanting to blab it to the table working it out, the GM took Billy aside to work out what happens when a Lawful good paladin puts on a magic item that changes said paladin to being Chaotic Evil.

GM was horrified at the answer & tried to convince Billy that he could probably somehow get the curse broken & work back to LG... Billy said that he had a better idea & asked the GM to keep quiet about what they talked about

Billy & the GM get back to the table with the GM looking a bit worried & Billy maybe excited or something but everyone could tell he had news he wanted to share....

"My god has given me a vision about an incredible treasure room we missed" Billy tells the suddenly excited group. After a bit of discussion about the vision it weas clear to the party that there was a secret passage hidden in the wall of a pit trap back there behind an illusion that looks like the same stone.

One by one Billy convinced the entire group to jump into a pit trap, bounce off the solid wall, & agree that the last guy just missed it. One by one the GM tried to convince the party that they don't see anything to back up what Billy is claiming & that the bodies of their fellow party members at the bottom really do look like an exact match for what they would expect if that PC had leapt into & died the pit trap. Billy citing his special paladin powers & link to his god was very convincing though & eventually used a rope to safely loot the bodies before leaving the dungeon.

Everyone had a blast & many laughs were had both at the time and years later with one of the players who was there backing up the fun both at the time and how the whole group (billy included) made new PCs who were related to/familiar with the old ones & heard about the evil paladin that needs to be stopped... as soon they were a bit stronger for the next adventure.

Eventually the rest of the group showed up & we played

 

[TwoSix]

I mean, I hate tracking slots too, but the whole idea of half casters is marred by the fact that D&D was never all that good at making up for the other half and has actively gotten worse at doing so because it no longer knows how to grant non-magical abilities.

Sometimes I like to imagine a system where everyone got their abilities at the same rate as everyone else. Wild, huh?