D&D General A glimpse at WoTC's current view of Rule 0

It has nothing to do with being better. It's that the shared knowledge between all the participants makes it easier to communicate and imagine concepts.

I know what Middle Earth and Star Trek look and sound like. I know how to make a character fit into the setting. In your setting, I'm depending on you, the DM, to tell me.

I ... huh? Bringing up those other settings was just using a common reference point of what shared and established lore looks like. As far as my setting ... yes you have to ask me or the other players. Just like if you had never heard of Tolkien you might want to pick up a book or four and start reading.

The only point was that if I join a Star Wars game I have different expectations than a Star Trek game. Those two fictional settings have different assumptions and broad themes, just like a DM's campaign world can have different assumptions and broad themes.
 

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When I play, which is not all that often, I design a character who has strong motivations and will drive things in directions that I think are interesting.
This is same for me, as in I do not often get a chance to play sadly.
With the current player who is running a game for us, they have a setting with an unfolding event (brought upon by our characters - a plague).
When I selected my bard character, I looked at the various nations (I think it is the 7th Seas setting) and formulated a backstory as well as the languages he would know. If the campaign continues long enough, my character may develop personal goals but as of right now, my goals are pretty much party goals and that is likely because of the in-game fiction.

When I GM, I look to what the players seem to want to do with their PCs, and establish situations that will provide opportunities to do that. What exactly that looks like, and how intense it will be, depends on the system. For instance, Burning Wheel or In A Wicked Age is more intense in this respect than Classic Traveller or Torchbearer 2e.

When GMing 4e D&D, which in its default presentation is heavily setting-oriented, I looked to the players to foreground those parts of the setting that they wanted to engage with (via their PCs). That's why our campaign made certain elements - the Raven Queen; the Lattice of Heaven; the sundering of the Elves, and their reunion; the nature and fate of the Abyss; and some other stuff too - central. While other parts of the default setting were of much less significance in our game.

My role wasn't just to bring those elements that the players had foregrounded into play; but to also present them in ways that would require the players to make hard choices - eg Will restoring the Lattice of Heaven have other consequences that sit at odds with the aspirations the players (as their PCs) have? Is it possible to permanently defeat the Abyss without restoring the Lattice of Heaven? Etc.

So this is not about presenting the setting in a "neutral" fashion. It's about pushing hard where that will be interesting for me and for the players.
Given the underdevelopment within D&D's character personality/drive/alignment system we expanded significantly on the TIBF system, attempting in a similar vein in what you're doing with more polished systems.

To give you an example.
In our last session the artificer who's personal goal is very much one of exploration and knowledge of science/tech (think Numenara) and it's role in the universe, had a meeting with Elminster who has a ward whose origins are along those lines. In any event the social encounter saw him gain a map of a rift which has occurred south of Candlekeep which promises Numenara artifacts/knowledge with the idea that he will investigate same with the ward and report back to Elminster on his findings.
This was all done through an easy enough Skill Challenge, but the real reward was that as the ward was escorting him out, she mentioned to him that Elminster has a book on Numenara but that she is unable to remove it from the premises - HOWEVER - she knows that Elminster is set to make an appearance the next day, at the Final Council Meeting before the push against Tiamat and Cult of the Dragon. She has no idea why Elminster has kept the tome a secret from the PC but she is willing (as she took a liking to the PC - real purpose of the Skill Challenge success) to have him access it while Elminster is away at the Council Meeting.
The hard choice I presented him being that his party needs him at the Council Meeting to help sway the Council Members.

He has a TIBF which states: Unlocking an ancient mystery is worth the price of a civilisation

Now, he earns an Inspiration point and an Experience Point if he adheres to his TIBF, thus disappointing his party members at the Council Meeting with his absence.
To put it into perspective Experience Points are extremely valuable and are one of three ways to increase in level in our campaign, we do not use the standard tables.
The Council will deliberate for 3 days, but missing the 1st day may certainly make things difficult for the rest of the party.

So, I lean into the TIBF system a lot (and encourage them too), presenting hard choices, but the players ultimately choose what their characters do.
Sadly for now, much of the legwork on this is done by me, but they do like these hard choices. The snag being that it requires me to very much be aware of their characters' TIBFs in order to find ways to apply them. For sure it is extra legwork on my side.
 
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If you’re running a kick down the doors, fight the monsters, take their loot kind of game, it really shouldn’t matter that one player wants to be a tabaxi and another one an artificer.
100% agreed.

The problem comes when you are running such a game and ban various races and classes because they don’t match your vision.
And again. "Vision" and "kick down the doors, fight the monsters, take their loot" seem like polar opposites to me!
 

Well, I'm not the one who has posted that successful play depends upon a GM having sole authority, nor that immersion is not possible in a system that resolves declared actions, in part at least, by factoring in a player's expenditure of "points".

I also don't think "new" and "old" are very meaningful labels here. As I already posted, I haven't tried to play in the GM-centred style for around 40 years. Given the hobby is only 50 years old, I don't think my approach is all that new. And the RPGs I play include Classic Traveller (1977) and Prince Valiant (1989). They're not all that new.
But 40 years ago you were a unicorn. Now you are at least some reasonable sized segment of the gaming population.

And I should caveat my assertions with "In my playstyle". Point noted.

I do assert that my style of game depends on DM authority.
If those points are not a real resource known to the character, then for me yes it is not possible to be immersed.
 

If the player declares an action, "I study the lock to see how hard it would be to pick" then set a difficulty and roll the dice. Conversely, if you're going to tell them without requiring a roll then just tell them! If not when you first describe the lock, then as soon as it becomes obvious at the table that they're thinking of trying to pick it.
Maybe I as DM do not anticipate every possible question that is reasonable. I do tell them sometimes as in my Diplomacy example.

With your Diplomacy example, wouldn't putting on fine clothes be part of making the check? Or wouldn't their absence cause a penalty?
And yes if I think anyone with diplomacy could possibly get it wrong I will wrong. In this case, I think it was an automatic success.

Neither of those is like the players asking them about the disguise stratagem, though.
I said that example wasn't a good one.
 

Why does it matter? The player went out of their way to prevent the success of the rest of the party when they had a clear goal.
Because this was supposed to be an example of a bad player.

But if the PCs have no reason to be chasing the NPCs other than player metagaming - "The GM has clearly set this up so that we chase the NPCs" - then it's not clear to me what was bad about it. I mean, maybe he was immersed in his character and felt that his character would be sympathetic to the fleeing PCs.

[EDITed to fix quote.]
 
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Well, I'm not the one who has posted that successful play depends upon a GM having sole authority, nor that immersion is not possible in a system that resolves declared actions, in part at least, by factoring in a player's expenditure of "points".

I also don't think "new" and "old" are very meaningful labels here. As I already posted, I haven't tried to play in the GM-centred style for around 40 years. Given the hobby is only 50 years old, I don't think my approach is all that new. And the RPGs I play include Classic Traveller (1977) and Prince Valiant (1989). They're not all that new.

Has anyone posted that successful play depends on the GM having sole authority? People are just talking preferences and, because this is a D&D thread, what the default for D&D is.

P.S. I really hate the term sole authority. It implies authority over the character's thoughts, words and deeds which no one has stated would be desirable.
 

I ... huh? Bringing up those other settings was just using a common reference point of what shared and established lore looks like. As far as my setting ... yes you have to ask me or the other players. Just like if you had never heard of Tolkien you might want to pick up a book or four and start reading.
For an unfamiliar IP, I just have to go read a book or watch a movie. That's easy. Asking a DM a bunch of questions about the setting is a pain in the neck.
 

Why? Being more famous does not make it inherently better.
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It has nothing to do with being better. It's that the shared knowledge between all the participants makes it easier to communicate and imagine concepts.

I know what Middle Earth and Star Trek look and sound like. I know how to make a character fit into the setting. In your setting, I'm depending on you, the DM, to tell me.
I agree with @TwoSix as far as the setting being "shared property" is concerned.

I also think there is a likelihood that the famous setting is more engaging than the homebrew setting. Not every fictional work that becomes famous is brilliant. But neither is every obscure creation dreamed up by one person as their world.
 


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