D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s
- Thread starter Snarf Zagyg
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I rarely do this, but I will make an exception. I put a lot of jokes, allusions, and references into my posts. A lot of them are obscure, and most of them are just to amuse myself. But there is always a reason.
The title of this post starts with this- Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug. You might say to yourself, "Self, I get it. Snarf is referring (mixing the metaphors into a fine metaphorical mist, as always) to the fact that some people prefer to ignore facts that they don't like."
Well, yes. But not just that- it's a quote. Where is that quote from?
A certain TV show. From ... the 1970s. All In The Family. The joke (other than the malapropism) is that Archie Bunker doesn't want to hear about any "problems" because those might contradict his ... let's say conservative view on matters.
That said, looking around at the pushback people get when recounting basic facts about events from 50 years ago, I don't think the we can say that all of these problems have been solved 25 years ago.
Or today. Better does not mean solved. IMO. I always believe that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and saying we cannot talk about the problems of the past honestly is usually a recipe for ensuring their continuation today.
Finally, I would note that the entire purpose of the essay is that when we start by correctly acknowledging the problems, we can then have the actually nuanced conversation about the good stuff! But the endless cycle of denial is what keeps us locked away from that. I'd prefer the conversations that acknowledge, yeah, some things sucked, but look at the ways in which it started to get better.
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KYRON45
Hero
Don't worry Snarf...I appreciate you.
I totally read the whole post this time.*
I am a big fat liar*.
**Now you don't know which statement is true. Mwah ha ha.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
-Hassan-I-Snarfbah
GP: Is Eris true?
M2: Everything is true.
GP: Even false things?
M2: Even false things are true.
GP: How can that be?
M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
—Principia Discordia, Malaclypse the Younger
I'm reading some of the other threads, but they are overwhelming and repetitive. Snarf threads are more fun.
I like Darlene's drawing better in every way.
D&D is a microcosm of life. Sexism was pretty common in the 70s, so it should be no surprise that there was sexism in D&D during the time. This is doubly true due to the primarily young male audience. This has been true of other forms of discrimination as well. As society has changed to move away from it, D&D has largely followed suit, albeit often at a delay.
DarkCrisis
Let her cook.
There is more sexism the further you back in time.
Shocking, I know.
What I find crazy is the fact it’s still an issue.
Did nobody take the “be a better person” to heart at the end of 80d cartoons? Knowing is half the battle!
Shocking, I know.
What I find crazy is the fact it’s still an issue.
Did nobody take the “be a better person” to heart at the end of 80d cartoons? Knowing is half the battle!
GreyLord
Legend
This is going to sound counter to some of the popular statements in the thread, but I hate both of the drawings. They are both sexist.
I find a lot of the discussion on sexism a little strange. We have a ton of white knights at tiimes with very little input from women who were gamers at that time. Sure, they quote various things from women, but invariably the articles, the posts, and other items are all from men.
It's like how I, who is a PoC, always seem to see white men who rush to my defense, even when I may think their defense isn't actually defending me, but defending something very different than how I see or perceive something. As a gamer who has at least one group almost entirely of minorities/PoC it is interesting to see those who have no experience in these dynamics going on about certain aspects that supposedly apply to my gaming habits.
There are some that are dead on, there are some that are actually incredibly racists. For example, the REASONINGS for some of the changes in D&D today, to me, have been incredibly racists in their reasonings and incredibly offensive. However, because it is an echo chamber of white men (and yes, despite increases and great strides in gaming, anecdotally I still see a majority of gamers these days being white men and the hobby still, overall, being dominated by white men) the minority is still incredibly ignored while the white knights who supposedly know what is racist or not interject what is or is not the correct way to do things.
Which is not to say that the current releases are not more friendly to others (because I can see in a few ways that they are more friendly, however there are still tones that are somewhat offensive in them that remain), just that some of the reasonings for the changes were incredibly horrible when one actually analyzes what they said were the causes, at least from an actual PoC's point of view.
So, going back to the topic at hand...it is possible that what we see as defending someone may actually be offensive to many, even if they are part of the target demographic one thinks they are defending. For example, those two pictures above. Do people really think that one is better than the other? I'd say both are actually equally offensive, and I'm happy neither are in gaming materials today (though, even there, I probably should not count as I am not a woman and my opinion on such a matter of whether it is sexist or not probably should not count as heavily as their opinion on this matter and those drawings).
I know a few gamers from earlier years that were girls (and they didn't go by women, or lady, we just called them a girl if referring to their gender or sex if necessary, but normally we called them by their name). One was my younger sister who started gaming in the mid to late 80s. She actually enjoyed many of the TSR novels that came out, and many of them appealed to her in their portrayal of characters. She generally played Elves and enjoyed playing a Thief in general. I have no idea how she felt in gaming or how the gaming community felt towards her at that time.
I did note that there WERE groups that were heavily misogynistic in their playstyles. She didn't play with people like that.
Another girl that was a gamer from the early 80s is a great friend of mine. She played far heavier and is one of the more active gamers from that time period. Her gaming started because her older brothers were playing D&D and she wanted to join in. She was actually born AFTER D&D was created (if that tells you about her generation, though as she was playing in the 80s she is still considered part of the older gaming generation today). I also played D&D with her brothers, but having her in the group made us more conscious about certain aspects of the game at that time.
For example, we would not want her exposed to either of those pictures put in that post at the time. We avoided game stores with her until she was at least in High School. At that point, she didn't really like some gamestores as the experiences at them were less optimal. There were some elements of gaming society that were not acceptable to her at that time. We would not game with those types of people. She was an avid gamer. She still is an avid gamer...when she has time (she has four kids, and so normally only games with us once or twice a year when we have a reunion of sorts).
[ I will also note she loved D&D artwork. She didn't like the scantily clad women (and neither did we) but loved Dragons and other things. She particularly loved Dragonlance, and had a big dragonlance poster she somehow obtained and hung up in the house. She was a big Dragonlance fan at the time and perhaps is one reason why I started to enjoy Dragonlance myself. I think some of the artwork around Dragonlance was more akin to her liking as many of the pictures and artwork she enjoyed was from Dragonlance).
So, I'd say there were unsavory elements of gaming back then, and there are still unsavory elements of gaming today. There are more friendly stores today then back then, but I occasionally still find a store which is not to favorable to having girls there at the store itself, or at the gaming tables.
The question is not to try to point out how those who created the game may have been different culturally from us back then (at least how I currently see it in the thread, it may change, I have you guys change my opinion on things all the time...believe it or not), but I think how we have changed today and whether we are creating a welcoming environment for those who would like to play the game in our modern times. If we are doing our best to welcome others to our game, I think we at least are trying to do it with the best intentions, but we are still making mistakes and stumbling around.
(as a prime example, I can try to make a welcome space for girls who want to play, but I myself am not a girl. I recognize that and ultimately, they will know what type of game they prefer and what they wish or do not wish a game to have in it far more than I would, so listening to their thoughts on the matter and their input is extremely important so that they also have the game that they wish rather than simply having the game that I want to run).
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