D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[Staffan]

Interesting post.

My intervention was to show how Darlene's drawing (a female artist) was 'counter-culture' for the 70s and counter culture for TSR. Her succubus is not objectified or sexualized contrary to Sutherland's, which was the mainstream male-dominated era.

I think Darlene's succubus would work better as a nymph or something (minus the horns, of course): beautiful but shy and trying to keep away from would-be "suitors".

 

[DarkCrisis]

Specifically: Succubi are meant to entice men. Otherwise the art would be far more androgynous or genderless in order to entice everyone.

The artists who create Incubus also design them to entice women based on the artist's assumption of what a woman wants.

But etymologically speaking both of those ideas are, in fact, wrong.

Succubus means "To lie beneath"
Incubus means "To lie upon"

They're Tops and Bottoms. So succubi could also very easily be cute twinky boys coquettishly trying to get you to pounce and incubi could be dommes or butches or cute femmes who aren't afraid of using a strap.

There'd also be the far more desirable Concubus or "To lie with" demon.

Switches are popular with everyone, after all. Bottom for tops, top for bottoms!

Well sure but this is D&D. Historical and mythological accuracy isn’t something they were going for. Sex demon for men and sex demon for women.

In my games they would be the exact same demon who can shapeshift to whatever they need to entice their target. 2 names, same demon.

 

[Steampunkette]

Well sure but this is D&D. Historical and mythological accuracy isn’t something they were going for. Sex demon for men and sex demon for women.

In my games they would be the exact same demon who can shapeshift to whatever they need to entice their target. 2 names, same demon.

That's why I use Concubus. They're switches!

Though in their true form they're basically like (more evil and visibly demonic) Doppelgangers.

 

[Mannahnin]

Im saying they are sex demons. So making them sexy in the art is thematic. I’m not really talking about the politics/sexism/whatever behind it all.

So you're just... not talking about the subject of the thread?

A piece of Playboy model monster art doesn't exist in a contextless vacuum. The topic was the overall at times very unwelcoming -to-women atmosphere of the RPG scene, which was worse in the 70s and has gradually gotten better, although certainly not all the way better.

If you don't want to discuss that subject, I'm not sure why you're weighing in to judge art which was offered as examples specifically in that context. It's confusing and derails the discussion.

 

[DarkCrisis]

So you're just... not talking about the subject of the thread?

A piece of Playboy model monster art doesn't exist in a contextless vacuum. The topic was the overall at times very unwelcoming -to-women atmosphere of the RPG scene, which was worse in the 70s and has gradually gotten better, although certainly not all the way better.

If you don't want to discuss that subject, I'm not sure why you're weighing in to judge art which was offered as examples specifically in that context. It's confusing and derails the discussion.

That still exists. Look up Greg Land of Marvel Comics fame.

 

[Aldarc]

Do you think women can’t find other women sexy when they are being provocative? Especially if those women are into other women?

I think that the issue is the same as I have stated before: the suggestion in your posts that succubi should be drawn in regards to the (implicitly straight) male gaze.

 

[Gradine]

Yeah, why are we talking about something that was done 50 years ago? It's already happened. In the past. This is why nobody studies history or talks about it at all.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I think that the issue is the same as I have stated before: the suggestion in your posts that succubi should be drawn in regards to the (implicitly straight) male gaze.

Should be / Can be. And I assume you mean "male gaze" as in "sexy". Which as I've said over and over works for a sex demon. I'm not sure how you aren't getting that in my posts.

 

[LordEntrails]

Because of course sexism was a thing.

Sexism still IS a thing in D&D. It's MUCH better than it was. But it's still here.

Of course there were things in D&D that would make the modern eyebrow jump

There still are. There have been recent (last few years) things that have popped up in WotC books that have sparked issues. And 'issues' are still prevalent in 3PP products.

Again, better than it was, but we should not state that such things are gone or only a remnant of the past.

 

[KYRON45]

This topic brought to by the same great mind that brought us "bards are no bueno" and " pineapple pizza; tasty treat or abomination?"
If you stare into the soul of the Snarf sometimes....hang on....does the Snarf even have a soul?