D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[Belen]

Social pressure can and does exist in both. And we can exert that social pressure to make it clear how fully unacceptable sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. are. We have, I would argue, a moral imperative* to do so.

I think I would agree, and that most people here would so as well, that we have a moral imperative to treat all people equally with kindness and dignity.

I think that this ideal has been diminished with the trend toward tribal communities.

I have not encountered a bad actor in the community in a long while but I also do not go to conventions and game days any longer and my gaming community mainly includes long term friends.

 

[Gradine]

If you feel you have moral imperative to call it out, you do you. I applaud you for activism. I'm to cynical for that. My idealism died long time ago.



Yes. While laws of the land apply to what's said in online spaces, those spaces also have Terms of service and Rules of conduct. You can say something that is totally within legal bounds and still be banned. You can't be banned if you say something on public square ( so long as it's within legal limits).

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

 

[Gradine]

That's why I have to be an activist on this. And it's why you all do too. There is no fence to sit on. Either you tolerate this behavior or you don't.

 

[Committed Hero]

Fair enough, but how many pictures of the succubus did the 1e MM need?

That's what makes this discussion a bit more interesting.

There was a definite line over which AD&D misogyny could cross; and did - in the first version of Palace of the Silver Princess. And while it is gratifying that the line has moved in a positive direction, I understand those who would want it moved even farther along.

 

[billd91]

If you feel you have moral imperative to call it out, you do you. I applaud you for activism. I'm to cynical for that. My idealism died long time ago.

Nobody is asking you to give it your all and die on some hill - just clap back if some meathead starts spewing some sexist, homophobic, or racist garbage at your table or in a conversation you're in. Is it too much to expect even that from you?

 

[Committed Hero]

I would also add that the Avalanche Press covers are on the younger end of the 25-year dividing line.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think the issue is actually two-fold.

First, there is the question of "original sin" in the game itself. It is a valid thing to discuss and to discuss with some level of relativism for the timeframe as well as individuals involved. I'm not saying that we should just give the ol' "boys will be boys" thing to it but placing statements and things within published work in some level of context. From my reading of stuff, especially regarding Gary specifically, he expressed some poor opinions of women and whether he realized it or not, incorporated a lot of racist or at the least racist-adjacent tropes into the game. Again, this was also a time before the term "intersectionality" existed, so I'll give him and some of his colleagues some level of benefit of the doubt. After all, from what we can also find out about, at least in Gary's case, was that he was a complicated individual who doesn't appear to have been motivated purely by malice, but more indifference or arrogance. Again, not justifying the negatives, just putting them in some level of perspective.

Second, and this is the really problematic part of this IMHO, are those who are malicious in their intent. These are the folks that deride everything as "woke" and become vehement that somehow anyone who acknowledges past error is destroying a legacy or something. Mr. Musk seems to have willingly jumped into this cesspit recently for instance, which is troubling given the megaphone of a social media platform he controls and wields as a cudgel. Making this group even more troubling is that not only do they seem to revere this stuff, but actually instead of it being simply included without circumspect or anything seem to want the game to be one of racist and sexist tropes where they can play out their own racist and misogynistic fantasies. This latter group definitely seems to be much more active in online spaces, but I have encountered them "in the wild" so to speak.

It has made me uncomfortable on more than one occasion to find myself agreeing with (topical but colorful) things said by some of the folks in that group you reference since Musk restarted the whole thing because I've also seen stuff they say on other topics. Admitting the existence of a group with an agenda like that is not a one way thing though... and it's the other direction where you see people at wotc saying things like "I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting★ is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.". We could make all kinds of guesses about other content that was revised cut or outright blocked by those standards supported by sins published decades ago, but in this case we can listen to the admission & point to the often silly 90's era zero tolerance style parallels formed between spelljammer preview images & spelljammer publication renaming "athaspace" to "doomspace".

It is this latter group that worries me.

I'm not so worried about that group you note because they have no ability to print much with any reach.... Although I remember all kinds of 90's era laughing stock "zero tolerance" policies & it worries me that the "inclusivity review" very much presents itself like some of those zero tolerance standards by being set to a similar standard based on things when most current players were not even born or were only very recently born rather than based on actual content.

★No, we can't use old setting books either because the mechanics fail miserably at supporting the themes & tone needed for a collapsed civilization in a horrible world where the very environment is hostile to survival.

 

[Hussar]

I've pretty much always played with small groups of people I am friends with. I've played in game stores on occasion, but even then it was with people I am friends with

I hear this a lot and I do believe that it is a big part about why people hold the various opinions about gaming that they do.

When most of your gaming is done within a very small circle of people, odds are you don’t run into a lot of issues.

On the other side of the spectrum, I haven’t gamed with friends since high school. I’ve always gamed in public spaces with people I met through gaming. At least for the most part.

Which means that yeah, I see a lot of these issues crop up.

 

[Voadam]

The illustration of Morgan is pretty ridiculous

The ridiculous part is carrying a strung bow across your chest, that is awkward for anyone and would regularly be a hindrance in adventuring. Combat, maneuvering, even just walking around.

I completely bought that she was a capable serious warrior skilled in sword and shield combat though and she became iconic.

Style wise she has amazing late '70s early '80s style hair and boots.

 

[Hussar]

Heh.

Watching that quote about Dark Sun being trotted out for the millionth time as “proof” of censorship just never gets old.

And people wonder why the folks at WotC are so incredibly tight lipped about anything and everything. When their words get weaponized for years afterwards.