D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Bae'zel]

This is a different issue, but also one encouraged by the lack of a firm goal of play; players should ideally know (or at least want to know) the rules of the game they're playing. My preferred approach goes a step further and maintains should not only know, but attempt to use, the rules of the game to their advantage.

If the rules are subject to change or worse, in the moment design, you can't really expect anyone to spend time learning them. If that's an option, then the game will naturally tend towards an at the table negotiation on an action by action basis, and you'll be training players that's the default mode of interaction.

I dunno, I think you’re implying that I’m doing my players a disservice by being flexible with the rules and not being firm enough about explaining the actual boundaries of the rules.

That isn’t necessarily the case here: I always explain the rules clearly and succinctly, but work with them to find a compromise to meet their objective, or at least propose steps to reach them. If that means that I’m giving the players an expectation that their next DM should be the same way, I won’t lose sleep over that.

Edit: I could be misinterpreting your words, but just in case: yes, I am capable of saying “no” to my players. Obviously. I teach people how to play, and I’m OK if they don’t like my GM play style, which is lethal (I always roll out in the open, and roll critical hits super frequently for some reason), but fair and always as a fan of the PCs, eager to see how they solve problems and succeed.

So far, in 25 years, no complaints yet. But to each their own.

 

[Oofta]

Except for the rules which players use and NPC's don't, such as classes, levels, death saves, inspiration, etc. 5E expressly acknowledges that PC's are different. Not to mention the biggest one, that NPC's largely operate by DM fiat. Unless you're making individual rolls to see if they fall in love, persuade one another offscreen, etc. Possibly JMISBEST does that to determine which of the suiters the 8th step niece of the king prefers, but I hazard a guess most don't.

Have you ever had a PC roll to see if they fall when walking down the inn stars out of combat? Or have Parkinson's? People do this all the time. You're already filtering the world through a dramatic and heroic lens. They don't have to roll to see if there are important events taking place near the PC's. The DM is already orchestrating that to ensure important events happen where they are at because otherwise it's a dull game about cobblers and farmers going about their routine lives in a quiet village where the biggest issue is the Lionel Pritcherd and the Wolfington brothers painting a cow, what most NPC's in the game world experience.

A lot of NPCs have class levels. That doesn't mean every NPC has class levels. Of course it's all campaign dependent, you can't make any assumptions about what applies to anyone else's campaign.

Heck in FR you can't throw a stone without hitting a high level NPC depending on where you are. After all as far as the PCs are considered, Elminister is an NPC.

 

[Bae'zel]

there are NPCs with levels and if the cobbler set out to find his luck he too would gain them. That is not a difference between them, except that the cobbler stayed at home


same as above, it could revolve around the cobbler picking up a club and taking on the pesky goblins just as much, the only difference is that he did not do it. His neighbor the blacksmith did, got his friend the farmhand to join him and they are now PCs

Heh sounds like your favourite mode of play is level-0 funnel mode in Dungeon Crawl Classics

 

[Micah Sweet]

Heh sounds like your favourite mode of play is level-0 funnel mode in Dungeon Crawl Classics

I am a fan of it.

 

[Bae'zel]

I am a fan of it.

Despite my expressed opinion here of "PCs are the bestest and the center of the campaign world" I do have a soft spot for the Funnel.

My first RPG ever was WFRP 1e and with the right GM, a "we're a bunch of sad loser nobodies trying to avoid getting eaten by ratmen in the sewers" is hella fun.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A lot of NPCs have class levels. That doesn't mean every NPC has class levels. Of course it's all campaign dependent, you can't make any assumptions about what applies to anyone else's campaign.

Heck in FR you can't throw a stone without hitting a high level NPC depending on where you are. After all as far as the PCs are considered, Elminister is an NPC.

Except they don't have classes or levels anymore in 5E. That was a 3E thing from almost 20 years ago at this point!

Look through any published adventure. NPC's have monster stat blocks and operate differently. I don't think Elminster has a published stat block, but he'd probably be an archmage modified by some legendary abilities.

Look at skills like persuasion or intimidate beyond applying the frightened condition. Those work on NPC's for compelling actions, not PC's.

 

[hawkeyefan]

there are NPCs with levels and if the cobbler set out to find his luck he too would gain them. That is not a difference between them, except that the cobbler stayed at home


same as above, it could revolve around the cobbler picking up a club and taking on the pesky goblins just as much, the only difference is that he did not do it. His neighbor the blacksmith did, got his friend the farmhand to join him and they are now PCs

Yes, and the reason the cobbler didn't do it is because he's not a PC. He's an NPC. The game's not about him.

Clearly they're different. I get the urge to consider them the same in the setting... that "no one's special". But that idea simply does not extend to the game itself. With the game, we are focused on the exploits of the PCs. They are the cyphers for the players. That's a significant difference and lends them so much more importance.

 

[Maxperson]

Which is why they shouldn't take it.

Well, no. All criminals should be able to take the criminal background. If the feature makes that unfeasible or nonsensical, it's the fault of the feature and not the background.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, no. Obviously as a player I wouldn't suggest a narration like that, it's implausible.

Pretty much everyone's backgrounds are going to fail in the "I fall into a one-way portal to Athas" situation.

I don't agree with that. Many backgrounds don't depend on the world. A soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Someone who was a hermit isn't going to lose that. Charlatans would fit right in. Sailor and folk hero might be problematic, but folk hero could be brought back to the forefront with a few adventures.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Except they don't have classes or levels anymore in 5E. That was a 3E thing from almost 20 years ago at this point!

Look through any published adventure. NPC's have monster stat blocks and operate differently. I don't think Elminster has a published stat block, but he'd probably be an archmage modified by some legendary abilities.

Look at skills like persuasion or intimidate beyond applying the frightened condition. Those work on NPC's for compelling actions, not PC's.

Bring back the Commoner class!!!