D&D General How Often Should a PC Die in D&D 5e?

[KYRON45]

Again:

These are online games. With more or less complete strangers.

Do you really expect complete strangers to always click?

For the various 5e games I've been in, most of them have failed because of a TPK before level 3. Often at level 1, because so. damn. many. DMs just won't start games higher than level 1. (And it's worth noting, several of these games WERE with only people I knew!)

No one is suggesting that strangers always get on. Sometimes you get lucky and find a group that stands the test of time. Sometimes you don’t.

I’ve never played an online game with strangers. I’ve never experienced a TPK. Seems like regardless of what level you’re playing if the DM is intent on squishing an entire party he’s gonna do it.

Do all these massacres happen because of power mad DMs? Do they just not want to DM long term games?

In general what you’re describing is alien to me. I wish you luck in finding better play experiences.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No one is suggesting that strangers always get on. Sometimes you get lucky and find a group that stands the test of time. Sometimes you don’t.

Okay. Tetrasodium basically just straight-up accused me of ruining every game I ever touch, so I hope you can understand why I would be not exactly thrilled with the implications here.

I’ve never played an online game with strangers. I’ve never experienced a TPK. Seems like regardless of what level you’re playing if the DM is intent on squishing an entire party he’s gonna do it.

Do all these massacres happen because of power mad DMs? Do they just not want to DM long term games?

For at least three of these DMs, it happened because they had had prior experience with a party that survived stuff they didn't expect them to survive, so they threw massively over-powered combats at us expecting no problems, only for it to blow up in their face. I specifically warned at least two of them (both people I actually knew in advance), both of them ignored me, and both games ended because of TPK (well, one ended because an all-but-one kill, but that did the same damage to the group dynamic.) I tried very hard to avoid this, but only ended up getting the short end of the stick as a result. (As in, with one of those games, after a previous level 1 near-TPK where we were only saved because the DM bent the rules and cured my character of mummy rot via NPC intervention, I cautioned that DM that they were throwing pretty strong fights at us for first-level characters, many of whom were played by first-time D&D players, and I was very courteously told I didn't know what I was talking about.)

Most of the others were simply because the incredibly swingy nature of damage and attacks at level 1 or 2 meant that characters were rolling death saves due to being hit by merely two attacks in a row. Because, y'know, the absolute best game design idea ever is to make your "few choices so new players can adjust well" levels also be the "literally taking two normal hits can put most characters into the Might Actually Die zone" levels.

In general what you’re describing is alien to me. I wish you luck in finding better play experiences.

I mean, luck doesn't really have that much to do with it. It would just be really nice if 5e DMs-in-general took less of a "I'm the DM, I call the shots, I know exactly what will always happen so there's no need to listen to feedback from my players" attitude. Which, yes, is at least passively cultivated by 5e's rules.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Okay. Tetrasodium basically just straight-up accused me of ruining every game I ever touch, so I hope you can understand why I would be not exactly thrilled with the implications here.


For at least three of these DMs, it happened because they had had prior experience with a party that survived stuff they didn't expect them to survive, so they threw massively over-powered combats at us expecting no problems, only for it to blow up in their face. I specifically warned at least two of them (both people I actually knew in advance), both of them ignored me, and both games ended because of TPK (well, one ended because an all-but-one kill, but that did the same damage to the group dynamic.) I tried very hard to avoid this, but only ended up getting the short end of the stick as a result. (As in, with one of those games, after a previous level 1 near-TPK where we were only saved because the DM bent the rules and cured my character of mummy rot via NPC intervention, I cautioned that DM that they were throwing pretty strong fights at us for first-level characters, many of whom were played by first-time D&D players, and I was very courteously told I didn't know what I was talking about.)

Most of the others were simply because the incredibly swingy nature of damage and attacks at level 1 or 2 meant that characters were rolling death saves due to being hit by merely two attacks in a row. Because, y'know, the absolute best game design idea ever is to make your "few choices so new players can adjust well" levels also be the "literally taking two normal hits can put most characters into the Might Actually Die zone" levels.


I mean, luck doesn't really have that much to do with it. It would just be really nice if 5e DMs-in-general took less of a "I'm the DM, I call the shots, I know exactly what will always happen so there's no need to listen to feedback from my players" attitude. Which, yes, is at least passively cultivated by 5e's rules.

Proof that 5E is a deadly game. Assuming this is 5E we're talking about??

 

[KYRON45]

Okay. Tetrasodium basically just straight-up accused me of ruining every game I ever touch, so I hope you can understand why I would be not exactly thrilled with the implications here.


For at least three of these DMs, it happened because they had had prior experience with a party that survived stuff they didn't expect them to survive, so they threw massively over-powered combats at us expecting no problems, only for it to blow up in their face. I specifically warned at least two of them (both people I actually knew in advance), both of them ignored me, and both games ended because of TPK (well, one ended because an all-but-one kill, but that did the same damage to the group dynamic.) I tried very hard to avoid this, but only ended up getting the short end of the stick as a result. (As in, with one of those games, after a previous level 1 near-TPK where we were only saved because the DM bent the rules and cured my character of mummy rot via NPC intervention, I cautioned that DM that they were throwing pretty strong fights at us for first-level characters, many of whom were played by first-time D&D players, and I was very courteously told I didn't know what I was talking about.)

Most of the others were simply because the incredibly swingy nature of damage and attacks at level 1 or 2 meant that characters were rolling death saves due to being hit by merely two attacks in a row. Because, y'know, the absolute best game design idea ever is to make your "few choices so new players can adjust well" levels also be the "literally taking two normal hits can put most characters into the Might Actually Die zone" levels.


I mean, luck doesn't really have that much to do with it. It would just be really nice if 5e DMs-in-general took less of a "I'm the DM, I call the shots, I know exactly what will always happen so there's no need to listen to feedback from my players" attitude. Which, yes, is at least passively cultivated by 5e's rules.

Finding a good DM absolutely requires luck. Especially with all of the horror scenarios you’re describing.

Have you considered DMing? Sometimes the best DM you’re ever gonna find might be you.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Finding a good DM absolutely requires luck. Especially with all of the horror scenarios you’re describing.

Have you considered DMing? Sometimes the best DM you’re ever gonna find might be you.

I am a GM for a weekly Dungeon World game. That's about my limit for DMing. And, yes, I did specifically invite people I knew to join that game.

 

[KYRON45]

I am a GM for a weekly Dungeon World game. That's about my limit for DMing. And, yes, I did specifically invite people I knew to join that game.

Do you wipe out your players with power mad fantasy DMing? If not then your players were lucky they found you.

Focus your energy on your game and maybe you’ll cultivate some of those players to be good future DM/GMs.

Best wishes.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Do you wipe out your players with power mad fantasy DMing? If not then your players were lucky they found you.

Nope. I specifically told my players that if they want to keep playing and don't want to lose their character, we can always work something out to keep their character in the game--they just might pay a hefty price, or be saddled with a duty they might be reluctant to fulfill, or...etc. I told them that, in return, I expect them to care about their participation, and to not abuse this for ridiculous ends. It's never once been an issue. My players are troopers and I'm very glad they continue to enjoy the game.

Focus your energy on your game and maybe you’ll cultivate some of those players to be good future DM/GMs.

Best wishes.

I can promise you that zero of them have an interest in becoming DMs themselves. The only one who did, his DM interests are not ones I share, and he has moved on to other games (had to leave my game for IRL reasons).

 

[Lanefan]

For the various 5e games I've been in, most of them have failed because of a TPK before level 3. Often at level 1, because so. damn. many. DMs just won't start games higher than level 1.

Good for those DMs. They have my approval.

That said, after a few of these TPKs happened did you do anything in subsequent campaigns to prepare for it possibly happening again, and take steps to help ensure it did not? As in one or more of:

--- playing a character with decent stealth and hiding skills (to aid in escaping bad situations)
--- playing a character willing to put self-preservation, if not first, at least high on the priority list
--- or, on the flip side, playing a truly heroic character willing to lay down its life so others in the party could escape
--- having an in-character conversation with the rest of the party, before hitting the field, as to some rudimentary survival and party-continuation strategies

Most if not all TPKs happen for one of three reasons:

1 - the DM throws overwhelming foes at the party (uncommon; a brand new DM might do this once or twice by mistake, then it doesn't happen again unless the DM's an asshat)
2 - the players luck just flat runs out and there's no escape (rare; but it happens, one of these was my only-ever TPK)
3 - the players are too stubborn to retreat, flee, or abandon their fallen (common; and also 100% preventable)

I'll accept reason 1 now and then from a brand new DM, they gotta learn somehow; and random chance dictates reason 2 is going to happen sooner or later if you keep doing this long enough.

But I have no sympathy whatsoever for reason 3. If the players are going to be that stubborn or that foolish I'll gladly keep killing their characters off over and over again: players gotta learn too, in this case that discretion really is sometimes the better part of valour.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Good for those DMs. They have my approval.

That said, after a few of these TPKs happened did you do anything in subsequent campaigns to prepare for it possibly happening again, and take steps to help ensure it did not?

Yes, I did.

As in one or more of:

--- playing a character with decent stealth and hiding skills (to aid in escaping bad situations)
--- playing a character willing to put self-preservation, if not first, at least high on the priority list
--- or, on the flip side, playing a truly heroic character willing to lay down its life so others in the party could escape
--- having an in-character conversation with the rest of the party, before hitting the field, as to some rudimentary survival and party-continuation strategies

Yes. I attempted all of these. It didn't help. (The second proved ultimately impossible for me. I can't do that. It makes me feel gross. Being a selfish amoral prick in-game genuinely makes me feel awful IRL.)

Most if not all TPKs happen for one of three reasons:

1 - the DM throws overwhelming foes at the party (uncommon; a brand new DM might do this once or twice by mistake, then it doesn't happen again unless the DM's an asshat)
2 - the players luck just flat runs out and there's no escape (rare; but it happens, one of these was my only-ever TPK)
3 - the players are too stubborn to retreat, flee, or abandon their fallen (common; and also 100% preventable)

Mostly 1 with a dash of 2. As an example, we were jumped without warning by "bandits" when we tried to take a short rest after a previous fight that we barely survived. The DM never said a word about "bandits" being an issue, we had prepared for clearing out animals from the location (an abandoned, ruined temple IIRC), and somehow these bandits managed to jump us exactly during the hour we were resting so we started out with no resources. Oh, and the fight we'd barely survived (before the bandits) was the first combat after the DM threw a literal mummy (CR 3) at a party of five 1st-level characters, where we barely survived, and my character would have suffered instant death after a single long rest if the DM hadn't specifically given us divine aid. And that mummy fight was our second fight of the campaign. Oh, and because the bandits jumped us inside, they were between us and escape. The DM explicitly said he didn't understand why we weren't able to survive this. Needless to say, I haven't played any TTRPGs with that person again.

In almost every situation, it's a DM (often, but not always, a new one) thinking PCs are nearly unkillable regardless of level, throwing something wildly too strong or preventing any possibility of meaningful response to a previous knock-down, drag-out fight. So we either get absolutely curbstomped and thus every PC dies (usually within 3 rounds), or we barely survive one fight, only to get immediately jumped by a fight nearly as hard when everyone is a breath away from rolling death saves.

Yes, I have seen this happen not just more than once, but several times. Yes, it is infuriating every time and I legitimately tried my hardest to square this circle, to no avail.

I'll accept reason 1 now and then from a brand new DM, they gotta learn somehow; and random chance dictates reason 2 is going to happen sooner or later if you keep doing this long enough.

But I have no sympathy whatsoever for reason 3. If the players are going to be that stubborn or that foolish I'll gladly keep killing their characters off over and over again: players gotta learn too, in this case that discretion really is sometimes the better part of valour.

When it happens during the third or fourth fight you've ever had, what exactly is the party supposed to do? Why is the DM consciously throwing unwinnable fights before even letting the party level up once?

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, I did.



Yes. I attempted all of these. It didn't help. (The second proved ultimately impossible for me. I can't do that. It makes me feel gross. Being a selfish amoral prick in-game genuinely makes me feel awful IRL.)


Mostly 1 with a dash of 2. As an example, we were jumped without warning by "bandits" when we tried to take a short rest after a previous fight that we barely survived. The DM never said a word about "bandits" being an issue, we had prepared for clearing out animals from the location (an abandoned, ruined temple IIRC), and somehow these bandits managed to jump us exactly during the hour we were resting so we started out with no resources. Oh, and the fight we'd barely survived (before the bandits) was the first combat after the DM threw a literal mummy (CR 3) at a party of five 1st-level characters, where we barely survived, and my character would have suffered instant death after a single long rest if the DM hadn't specifically given us divine aid. And that mummy fight was our second fight of the campaign. Oh, and because the bandits jumped us inside, they were between us and escape. The DM explicitly said he didn't understand why we weren't able to survive this. Needless to say, I haven't played any TTRPGs with that person again.

In almost every situation, it's a DM (often, but not always, a new one) thinking PCs are nearly unkillable regardless of level, throwing something wildly too strong or preventing any possibility of meaningful response to a previous knock-down, drag-out fight. So we either get absolutely curbstomped and thus every PC dies (usually within 3 rounds), or we barely survive one fight, only to get immediately jumped by a fight nearly as hard when everyone is a breath away from rolling death saves.

Yes, I have seen this happen not just more than once, but several times. Yes, it is infuriating every time and I legitimately tried my hardest to square this circle, to no avail.


When it happens during the third or fourth fight you've ever had, what exactly is the party supposed to do? Why is the DM consciously throwing unwinnable fights before even letting the party level up once?

I notice a common thread that I've seen in a lot of my 5e players, you seem to have a lot of deaths from bandits following a rest... If a player were to relay experiences like that to me I would think it irresponsible on my point not to bring up logic once made clear in player facing rulebooks It's extremely uncommon for bandits to interrupt a rest when the party travels back to town or whatever in order to rest someplace safe (like a room at the local tavern/inn/whatever). I can't say that I would expect to be trapped within your lodgings by bandits while attempting to flee either but could see a notable bandit presence if the party had already done that a few times in what should have been a single adventuring day.


This thread alone has a wide array of posts from folks lamenting the fact that 5e encourages players to ignore risk that should be taken seriously & even some about how the GM adjusting the difficulty to influence that will often backfire to make perfectly mundane gameplay lethal simply by players refusing to adapt. The fact that 5e encourages players to double down on that with a PoV where an interrupted rest leads to a shrug with another rest starting up immediately or after a wait while blaming GMs for the results of not restricting those rests is one of the system's most frustrating design choices.