D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Maxperson]

I assume the below is a quote from Gary that @Maxperson used

"Furthermore, once beyond the normal limits of earth's atmosphere, gravity and resistance are such that speed increases dramatically, and the whole journey will take but a few days."

it says nothing about remaining within an atmosphere, to me it very much sounds like you are not. That winged flight does not make much sense at that point, I chalk up to Gary not caring more than Gary using a different model. If he did, why did he talk about leaving the atmosphere.

He was saying that you as the DM could allow something like that or anything else. He wasn't saying it was already like that.

"Other forms of travel, the risks and hazards thereof, you must handle as you see fit. For instance, suppose that you decide that there is a breathable atmosphere which extends from the earth to the moon, and that any winged steed capable of flying fast and far can carry its rider to that orb."

That's the language prior to the above quote.

 

[Micah Sweet]

He was saying that you as the DM could allow something like that or anything else. He wasn't saying it was already like that.

"Other forms of travel, the risks and hazards thereof, you must handle as you see fit. For instance, suppose that you decide that there is a breathable atmosphere which extends from the earth to the moon, and that any winged steed capable of flying fast and far can carry its rider to that orb."

That's the language prior to the above quote.

Huh. Using the whole quote seems pretty relevant here...

 

[pemerton]

Sure, but you can't do that unless the DM changes things. Gravitation is the default, but the DM can of course change it as Gary mentions.

Universal gravitation isn't the default, though. There is no default in D&D worlds that celestial motion occurs as a result of gravitation; that the PCs' homeworld having an atmosphere is due to the operation of the world's gravity on gases; etc. I mean, in the default D&D world the elements are air, earth, fire and water!

The default in D&D worlds is that typical objects in the general vicinity of the earth behave as they do on our earth. That's it. Atomic theory, biological mutation and evolution by way of natural selection, the presence of cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere, the role of ozone in protecting against sunburn, etc - none of these is a default in D&D.

 

[pemerton]

I assume the below is a quote from Gary that @Maxperson used

"Furthermore, once beyond the normal limits of earth's atmosphere, gravity and resistance are such that speed increases dramatically, and the whole journey will take but a few days."

it says nothing about remaining within an atmosphere, to me it very much sounds like you are not. That winged flight does not make much sense at that point, I chalk up to Gary not caring more than Gary using a different model. If he did, why did he talk about leaving the atmosphere.

He doesn't talk about leaving the atmosphere - he talks about leaving its "normal limits". He posits that the character flying to the moon can breathe on the way there.

In any event, I am not talking about the precise details of Gygax's example. I am showing that it, plus the existence of elemental and positive/negative material planes, plus the role of gods, plus the possibility of perpetual motion machines, plus the ability of dragons to fly and giant insects to breathe, etc - all these show that there is no assumption, in D&D, that the physics of the real world govern the imagined world of fantasy.

If you want to say that D&D assumes common sense, that is true - but the whole point of physics is that it is a departure from common sense. We don't need physics to tell us that objects fall to earth - that's common sense. But no one in mediaeval times realised that exactly the same thing - ie universal gravitation - explains both why objects fall to earth, and why celestial bodies have the motion that they do. And nothing in any D&D rulebook suggests that such a thing is a default assumption for the gameworld. In fact quite the opposite, for the reasons I've given.

 

[Maxperson]

Universal gravitation isn't the default, though. There is no default in D&D worlds that celestial motion occurs as a result of gravitation; that the PCs' homeworld having an atmosphere is due to the operation of the world's gravity on gases; etc. I mean, in the default D&D world the elements are air, earth, fire and water!

The default in D&D worlds is that typical objects in the general vicinity of the earth behave as they do on our earth. That's it. Atomic theory, biological mutation and evolution by way of natural selection, the presence of cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere, the role of ozone in protecting against sunburn, etc - none of these is a default in D&D.

The 1e DMG mentions mental mutations which would come from biological mutations, as well as an ozone smell indicating ozone is in the game, it also mentions characters transported to post-atomic war Gamma World, indicating that atomic theory is in the game as well. We know space ships are in, because one crashed into the Barrier Peaks and another into Glantri. One or both had radiation.

It seems pretty clear that these settings are supposed to be like Earth unless it says how they are not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

He doesn't talk about leaving the atmosphere - he talks about leaving its "normal limits". He posits that the character flying to the moon can breathe on the way there.

In any event, I am not talking about the precise details of Gygax's example. I am showing that it, plus the existence of elemental and positive/negative material planes, plus the role of gods, plus the possibility of perpetual motion machines, plus the ability of dragons to fly and giant insects to breathe, etc - all these show that there is no assumption, in D&D, that the physics of the real world govern the imagined world of fantasy.

If you want to say that D&D assumes common sense, that is true - but the whole point of physics is that it is a departure from common sense. We don't need physics to tell us that objects fall to earth - that's common sense. But no one in mediaeval times realised that exactly the same thing - ie universal gravitation - explains both why objects fall to earth, and why celestial bodies have the motion that they do. And nothing in any D&D rulebook suggests that such a thing is a default assumption for the gameworld. In fact quite the opposite, for the reasons I've given.

2e Spelljammer assumed that objects in space fall to Earth (although it had its own, more Ptolemeic ideas about other sources of gravity).

 

[mamba]

Universal gravitation isn't the default, though. There is no default

I do not think D&D needs to prescribe something here, I do however think that unless you explicitly deviate from it in your home game, the default is that things function the same way they do in reality. That is unless you specifically mention something beforehand I will play that way, I will not question every assumption until you provide an answer

I assume water is buoyant enough for people to swim in it. I assume the air is breathable, I assume the plants produce oxygen, for that matter I assume the animals use up the oxygen, etc

 

[Maxperson]

I do not think D&D needs to prescribe something here, I do however think that unless you explicitly deviate from it in your home game, the default is that things function the same way they do in reality. That is unless you specifically mention something beforehand I will play that way, I will not question every assumption until you provide an answer

I assume water is buoyant enough for people to swim in it. I assume the air is breathable, I assume the plants produce oxygen, for that matter I assume the animals use up the oxygen, etc

The 1e DMG also says this on page 9.

"This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged."

He's talking about D&D being a game vs. realism in that area. He stresses that game comes first, but he says right there that if it doesn't interfere with the flow of the game, it has the highest degree of realism if it can be done.

Universal gravitation doesn't not interfere with the flow of the game, so by Gygax's own words, it exists.

 

[pemerton]

I do not think D&D needs to prescribe something here, I do however think that unless you explicitly deviate from it in your home game, the default is that things function the same way they do in reality.

This is nonsense.

For instance, can you even tell me - without looking up wikipedia or similar - why it is impossible, on earth, to have giant terrestrial arthropods; why it is impossible, on earth, for a dragon to fly; why it is impossible, on earth, for there to be a humanoid with the strength and stature of a storm giant? All those things are part of the default of D&D, even though they are impossible in reality. D&D does not assume all the elements of reality that make them impossible.

There is no assumption in D&D that perpetual motion machines are impossible. Quite the opposite - the game is rife with them!

Likewise when it comes to social phenomena. The game assumes heroic mortals, divine beings who influence mortals, etc - so there is no assumption that principles of social life, social psychology, economics, knowledge creation, etc operate as they do in the real world (and, just as one well known example, most D&D worlds completely ignore the effects of inflation).

This idea that D&D by default incorporates scientific reality has no foundation in any D&D text I've ever read - and I've read quite a few.

I assume water is buoyant enough for people to swim in it. I assume the air is breathable, I assume the plants produce oxygen, for that matter I assume the animals use up the oxygen, etc

People have known that water is buoyant for as long as they have had the cognitive capacity to know things, and have tried swimming and observed floating timber. This has nothing to do with physics being true.

People knew that suffocation was a risk before they knew about oxygen, which is knowledge humans have had for only centuries. D&D PCs know they need to breathe. They know nothing of oxygen - given that air is an element! - and there is no reason to think that oxygen, as opposed to air, is even a thing in the game world.

 

[pemerton]

The 1e DMG also says this on page 9.

"This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged."

He's talking about D&D being a game vs. realism in that area. He stresses that game comes first, but he says right there that if it doesn't interfere with the flow of the game, it has the highest degree of realism if it can be done.

Universal gravitation doesn't not interfere with the flow of the game, so by Gygax's own words, it exists.

There is no relationship between universal gravitation and "a serious approach to play*,

And what about relativity? Can D&D PCs do experiments to try and determine the perturbations in the orbits of celestial bodies close to the sun? The whole idea is ridiculous, given that D&D worlds don't obey relativistic limits on the transmission of signals through space and time.

Gygax's own worlds do not say that universal gravitation is part of the game. The realism he is talking about pertains to things like how fast and far pursuers can pursue fleeing PCs, not how biological processes work in the gameworld, how quickly light travels in a vacuum, how far the sun is from the earth, etc.