Did the nerds win?

[Ruin Explorer]

In absolute terms, I think "many" is the right term. I don't know if it's right in relative terms, but certainly a significant chunk.

Sure, but when there are tens of millions to hundreds of millions of nerds, "many" will always work as an absolute term. I think that even back in the '90s it was maybe 15-25% of people who played RPGs, read comic books, and so on who thought that was "the actual point". Is that significant? Yes. But again I would assert "many" of those people, perhaps the majority, tended not to understand the media/games they engaged with in the way their creators intended, and could frequently be problematic even back then.

In particular, there's the reward element of feeling really clever when your investment "pays off" by letting you figure out mysteries before they're actually revealed (like John Snow's actual parentage).

I don't really buy it, because that's extremely rare and the GoT TV show clearly demonstrated how mainstream audiences also love a mystery you can solve. You didn't need to be particularly "invested" in ASoIaF to guess at R+L=J - some people just figured it out. Discussion of it massively increased from about 2002 onwards, but that corresponds precisely with the sudden surge in popularity of the ASoIaF books at that time (I'm not exactly sure why that was - fantasy, esp. darker fantasy, just surged massively in popularity from 2000 through about 2005 - perhaps LotR's success at the cinema was connected).

Of course, in both cases with expanding mass market appeal, those voices are getting drowned out. And there's a fine line to walk between keeping things accessible to new people on one hand, and excessive fanservice on the other, and I can't really blame creators for erring in favor of the former (particularly since that seems to be where the dollars are).

I feel like those people who like needless complexity, endless tomes of usually-pointless lore, worldbuilding for worldbuilding's sake and so on are actually pretty well-catered-for nowadays, so I don't think there's much of a real complaint. There are even creators who entirely rely on such an audience, having essentially rejected the mainstream one, like Brandon Sanderson.

Personally I'm a weird position because I don't actually like learning lore but am nonetheless something of a "lore sponge". My knowledge of Star Wars lore is relatively encyclopedic (compared to most SW fans, old or new), but I'm not even really a "fan" of Star Wars in the sense of actually liking it hugely, nor have I ever been.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It does seem odd to me how mainstream RPGs have become

That's one thing that doesn't seem particularly odd to me, because I always saw them as innately appealing and I noticed that even back when they were less mainstream, a lot of pretty mainstream people seemed intrigued by the idea, and few repulsed (I mean, this is in the UK admittedly, where the Satanic panic never caught on outside of cops/social workers). Further I'd thought from the early '90s that one of the main barriers was overcomplicated rules and the sometimes-insular community of RPGs, so with that changing it's not surprising to me that a lot more people are into them.

 

[Ryujin]

Indeed. Big Bang Theory is a pure-outsider (i.e. non-nerd) appropriation of and manipulation of nerd/geek culture, and is extremely superficial in its understanding thereof, and relied on stereotypes that were aimed solidly at Gen X contempt for nerds. It's actually quite hostile to nerds and neurodiverse people. It's very different to shows which genuinely love this stuff like Community.

I absolutely agree. Stuff like "Big Bang Theory" laughs at nerds. Stuff produced by nerds tends to be us, laughing along with other nerds and even laughing about ourselves ("The Guild", "The Gamers"...).

I'm with Team Appropriation. You can't present Peter Parker as a nerdy outsider anymore, because it wouldn't be understood. Now his bully is another nerd. In fact those who would have been my bullies, back in high school, are involved in the sort of thing that resulted in me being bullied.

It feels like back when i was in high school and got laughed at for wearing a $5.00 army surplus bush jacket and $15.00 combat boots, when it was all that i could afford, and the next year all of the Cool Kids© were wearing the same thing and the prices went up to the point that i could no longer afford what I was previously wearing.

 

[overgeeked]

No, we didn’t win. Our nerd stuff is just the latest pop culture fad. It’s been appropriated. It’ll die down soon. Superhero fatigue will kill superhero movies. D&D fatigue will kill the D&D craze. It’s all cyclical. There will be a shift to something else as the big new thing. It never lasts.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Now his bully is another nerd.

I mean, wasn't he before? I dunno - in the UK, in the 90s, I felt like by far the most hostility and unpleasantness towards stuff like Star Trek, RPGs, video games and stuff wasn't from people who were into sports or cool clothes, but from people who were into other basically-nerdy activities. Indeed, I was one of the kids who wore cool clothes - because that wasn't an interest signifier, it was a wealth signifier, and there was no contradiction between being wealthier and a nerd.

The only D&D-related bullying attempts I can remember from high school were from another, older group of D&D players who thought us younger players were dumb babies playing dumb baby D&D - i.e. AD&D 2nd edition, not 1st edition (yes I was introduced to edition wars even before the internet!). They were pretty rude and tried to make us stop playing but ineffectually.

The only videogame-related bullying attempts I can remember from high school were videogame-playing kids trying to raise themselves above everyone else and put people down for having the wrong game system, or playing the wrong games - and yeah in many cases that translated to richer kids bullying/putting down poorer. But it wasn't "because they were nerds", it was "because they were poor".

Even your clothing example, you got bullied for being poor, not for being a nerd. And that's the bullying I have seen a ton more of - of kids who are poor, of kids who sick in unsympathetic ways, of kids who are small for their age etc. - but I feel like by the '90s, already bullying for being a "nerd" re: interests, at least in the UK, wasn't a big thing, comparatively.

 

[Meech17]

I'm going to go out on a Positive/Glass-Half-Full limb here.

I think the nerds did win.. And by extension so did many others.

Personally, I think the Internet allowed more people who quietly enjoyed Spiderman or Lord of the Rings so as not to appear to be nerds to see that they were the majority and could say that out loud.

I think Parmandur is on to something here. The internet made the world much, much smaller. I was talking to my family about this recently, but the negative side of it. We've seen proliferation in things like wacky fringe beliefs and conspiracies like Flat Earth. It used to be that if you had this idea that the Earth was flat, you'd bring it up to your friends and family, and they'd laugh at you and make you sit at the kids' table at Thanksgiving. But now.. you can grab your phone from there at the kids' table, and hop on social media where you'll find hundreds or thousands of other people who also think the Earth is flat, strengthening your beliefs.

This is goes the same way for good things too. You live in a small rural town where no one cares about Comic Books, or Fantasy novels? Now you can go online and find your tribe.

It wasn't that "nerd" interests were weird in themselves, but that the weird bullies who would pick on people who would share that lost their cultural power.

The Nerd interests were just small things that made the nerds different. It allowed for bullies to 'Other' them. Bullies haven't gone anywhere, it's just that now bullying is also changing to adapt to modern times. Cyberbullying among teens is horrific.

As several others have said, no I don't think its cool to be a nerd, its just that several nerdy things have been appropriated. The MCU, Star Wars, video games and arguably Dungeons & Dragons (but not RPGs in general).

However if you dig deep, there are a lot of "nerdy" hobbies that still get those reactions from people. Talking about Magic the Gathering or Warhammer 40k is still often met with blank stares IME (though this supposed Amazon show might change that). Even within certain properties I see that division. As somebody said, everyone knows the movies, but if you start talking about Marvel comics you lose people. I find video games extends as far as whatever action/fps game is trending on the "adult" consoles (PlayStation, Xbox) but if you start waxing poetic about Nintendo people find that strange, childish almost.

I don't know if I'm going to say being a nerd is now cool... However, it is socially acceptable now. Something I think we need to do is define 'Nerd'. Some say it's just a person who is interested in stereotypical 'Nerd' Hobbies. TTRPGs, Video Games, Fantasy and Sci-Fi, etc. I'd argue however, that anyone can be a nerd.. And being a nerd is about being super invested, enthusiastic, or dedicated to a "Thing". This thing could be D&D.. It could be Magic The Gathering (I'm a nerd for both of these things.)

But my girlfriend is a nerd for KPop, and Hockey. My boss is a nerd for Professional Football. My girlfriend has a friend who I'd consider a 'Fashion Nerd'.

There have always been these flavors of nerdiness. For instance your Star Wars nerds and your Star Trek nerds, are historically at odds. These groups would get picked on bullied, but I don't think it was because they were nerds.. But rather they were just different. They liked niche things, and that gave bullies ammunition to other them.

These days however, with the internet allowing us to all find our little tribes, everyone is able to get nerdy about the things they love. If you bully someone now for liking a niche hobby, and there are other adults nearby, you'll likely be ostracized more for that then your target will be. Unless of course those other adults are also wangrods.. Which is possible, but I feel like it's less likely these days.

A little over a year ago now Magic the Gathering had a crossover set with Lord of the Rings, and sold a 1 of 1, serialized card depicting The One Ring. This card inspired a Willy Wonka-esque golden ticket hunt that ended in Post Malone purchasing the card for around $2,000,000.00 Of course this type of story is the kind that escapes orbit and makes it to the general population. During this period I got a text from that friend I mentioned earlier who I consider to be a fashion nerd. She sent me a link about the One Ring and asked if I knew anything about it.. Asked what made it so special. There was no judgement.. She just knew I was into MTG and was curious.

I'm not trying to diminish anyone's experience.. And I'm sure some people do still get bullied for their niche hobbies.. But I think it's far more common that it's acceptable to be a nerd about things these days. While there are downsides to this like the commodification of the things we love and hold dear.. I think the mainstream appeal has largely been a net positive.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I mean, wasn't he before? I dunno - in the UK, in the 90s, I felt like by far the most hostility and unpleasantness towards stuff like Star Trek, RPGs, video games and stuff wasn't from people who were into sports or cool clothes, but from people who were into other basically-nerdy activities.

There is a strong component of this. I've said it repeatedly -- those who were worst to nerds have typically been other nerds staking territory.

At some point I will do a full on thread on the subject. It's a nuanced one to write, and the central focus is hard to do without stepping on toes (even when I'm part of the group I am critiquing).

Indeed, I was one of the kids who wore cool clothes - because that wasn't an interest signifier, it was a wealth signifier, and there was no contradiction between being wealthier and a nerd.

The only D&D-related bullying attempts I can remember from high school were from another, older group of D&D players who thought us younger players were dumb babies playing dumb baby D&D - i.e. AD&D 2nd edition, not 1st edition (yes I was introduced to edition wars even before the internet!). They were pretty rude and tried to make us stop playing but ineffectually.

The only videogame-related bullying attempts I can remember from high school were videogame-playing kids trying to raise themselves above everyone else and put people down for having the wrong game system, or playing the wrong games - and yeah in many cases that translated to richer kids bullying/putting down poorer. But it wasn't "because they were nerds", it was "because they were poor".

Even your clothing example, you got bullied for being poor, not for being a nerd. And that's the bullying I have seen a ton more of - of kids who are poor, of kids who sick in unsympathetic ways, of kids who are small for their age etc. - but I feel like by the '90s, already bullying for being a "nerd" re: interests, at least in the UK, wasn't a big thing, comparatively.

When we specifically focus on secondary school, it gets more complicated (above I was speaking in generalities). Above and beyond anything else, adolescent kids are just teh-heh-herrible to each other! I mean, I remember that time period being bad, but then my brother started coaching for high schoolers, and eventually everyone's kids hit that age and man did I not remember it being just that universal. Between groups, within groups, sometimes at the same time. So were the non-nerds bullying the nerds? Certainly. But not because they were nerds, but merely because they existed. And yes, the nerds were also bullying each other (and sometimes because they were nerds, as in the wrong type or the same type and thus competition for rule of the roost, etc.), and moreso just due to proximity.

 

[Willie the Duck]

No. Geek media has been appropriated by the mainstream. All our base belong to them now.

I think the issue is that, if those mainstreamers like the things, they may, in fact, be nerds.

That's the problem with interest-derived demographics -- you are one by deciding you are one/doing what one does. We previous iterations of the demographic can say we were there first and pat ourselves on the back for doing so when it was much less accessible, but that's pretty much just saying that we are older.

Nerddom isn't a badge of honor (one way or the other, or for some but not others), it's a set of interests. Full stop. If the wider world of people enjoying fiction IPs looks at what we enjoy and says, 'hey, that looks neat!,' then they are part of the movement.

 

[Ryujin]

I mean, wasn't he before? I dunno - in the UK, in the 90s, I felt like by far the most hostility and unpleasantness towards stuff like Star Trek, RPGs, video games and stuff wasn't from people who were into sports or cool clothes, but from people who were into other basically-nerdy activities. Indeed, I was one of the kids who wore cool clothes - because that wasn't an interest signifier, it was a wealth signifier, and there was no contradiction between being wealthier and a nerd.

Peter Parker's bully was a jock; member of the football team, letterman sweater wearer, part of the "in crowd."

The only D&D-related bullying attempts I can remember from high school were from another, older group of D&D players who thought us younger players were dumb babies playing dumb baby D&D - i.e. AD&D 2nd edition, not 1st edition (yes I was introduced to edition wars even before the internet!). They were pretty rude and tried to make us stop playing but ineffectually.

The only videogame-related bullying attempts I can remember from high school were videogame-playing kids trying to raise themselves above everyone else and put people down for having the wrong game system, or playing the wrong games - and yeah in many cases that translated to richer kids bullying/putting down poorer. But it wasn't "because they were nerds", it was "because they were poor".

Even your clothing example, you got bullied for being poor, not for being a nerd. And that's the bullying I have seen a ton more of - of kids who are poor, of kids who sick in unsympathetic ways, of kids who are small for their age etc. - but I feel like by the '90s, already bullying for being a "nerd" re: interests, at least in the UK, wasn't a big thing, comparatively.

I was bullied for being different. It just so happened that I was different in that way out of financial necessity. The next year, when all the cool kids were wearing surplus, I was no longer bullied for the appearance of my clothes. I guess they all suddenly discovered John Lennon, or something, and they coincidentally all appeared in the school's production of "Godspell" that year. I just couldn't afford new old clothes.

 

[Retreater]

They won - and we won too?