Did the nerds win?

[Ruin Explorer]

@Ruin Explorer , please don't frame my stance as anti-inclusive of those who aren't great at math. There are plenty of games, and plenty of tastes for games out there. They don't have to all be mathematically simple.

It is anti-inclusive as those who aren't great at math, explicitly so, so I absolutely will frame it is as that.

It's just not anti-inclusive about the hobby as a whole, but specific games. You're not trying to drive people out of RPGs in general, no-one is suggesting that!

The cold fact is that if you make a game which requires a lot of math and a lot number-manipulation or memorizing or the like, you're going to exclude and/or confuse a lot of players who currently play RPGs, probably including people in your current group.

What even is a game you think is math-heavy? I actually can't think of one which isn't some failed/forgotten 1980s or 1990s deal. I can think of ones which require an awful lot of adding and subtracting and memorizing numbers, enough that it messes with a lot of people - 3.XE/PF1 would be that, but I wouldn't call it math-heavy.

I think you could make an interesting math-heavy RPG, but has it been done?

Sorry I disagree there are loads of groups that haven't moved to 5E because it just doesn't offer then same complexity that they enjoy. There are plenty of RPGs I avoid for long term campaigns because they don't have any real depth in their character generation systems, which I know my players enjoy.

You're making the same weird-to-me error of confusing complexity and math-heavy.

They're not the same thing. You don't need much math to be complex, rules-wise.

 

[Bagpuss]

Math complexity though? Or rules complexity?

Because those are two different things. You can have complex rules without complex math, and you can have complex math without complex rules (though it is less common and usually indicates some kind of failure).

I don't think there are any RPGs that have complex maths (well maybe Guns, Guns, Guns the system neutral gun design tool and the Vehicle Design rules in Traveller NE), nothing is harder than a bit of addition, subtraction and rarely a division.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Pathfinder 1, with all the supplements added, was the least complex he could tolerate. Which was rather unfortunate, because I couldn't face that, either.

Fortunately, it was a reasonably wide group, so we were able to each do our own things without issue.

Wow. So yeah he had incredibly narrow tastes, and it's more about rules complexity and particularly "ludicrous numbers of options" than math.

I don't think there are any RPGs that have complex maths (well maybe Guns, Guns, Guns the system neutral gun design tool and the Vehicle Design rules in Traveller NE), nothing is harder than a bit of addition, subtraction and rarely a division.

That's my point.

The claim that "math nerds" need special RPGs to satisfy their needs is thus very questionable. Are "math nerds" truly pleased by the mere constant addition/subtraction of say, D&D 3.5E?

 

[delericho]

Wow. So yeah he had incredibly narrow tastes, and it's more about rules complexity and particularly "ludicrous numbers of options" than math.

I think that was his compromise because he couldn't find a game that was mathematically complex enough to satisfy. Or perhaps not one that he could find anyone else willing to play.

 

[Umbran]

Because no computer game is going to have all the depth and breadth a human can imagine in an RPG space, and the math nerds deserve to find their fun in that arena too, especially since the hobby "started" with a significant math aspect to it. Why should they have to move to computer games to play have the ROG experience they enjoy?

It isn't about "deserving".

This is about the qualities of the RPG medium, about what it naturally does well, and what it doesn't do so well, as compared to other media.

And as far as limiting the audience, so what?

As a practical matter, it takes a lot of work to make a mathematically complex game well. It takes large playtest efforts to work kinks our of much simpler games. I wouldn't expect many to take on the task for something with a very limited audience. It sounds to me like it ends up in the space of, "How do you make a small fortune in the RPG industry? Start with a large fortune...."

That said, if you can find an RPG that plays well for your people, and satisfies your math-nerd desires, more power to you. We aren't saying you shouldn't have what you want, just that it is perhaps a bit of a Grail Quest to find it.

 

[Ryujin]

I think that was his compromise because he couldn't find a game that was mathematically complex enough to satisfy. Or perhaps not one that he could find anyone else willing to play.

Sounds like the target audience for Space Opera.

 

[Stormonu]

I don't think there are any RPGs that have complex maths (well maybe Guns, Guns, Guns the system neutral gun design tool and the Vehicle Design rules in Traveller NE), nothing is harder than a bit of addition, subtraction and rarely a division.

That'd be incorrect. Villians & Vigilantes has some complex math going on (multiple ability score mods that are added & multiplied, the gem below for figuring out carrying capacity....)

It's not alone, but there are several other (older) RPGs that can get a bit wild with math (and modifiers).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That'd be incorrect. Villians & Vigilantes has some complex math going on (multiple ability score mods that are added & multiplied, the gem below for figuring out carrying capacity....)

View attachment 389456

It's not alone, but there are several other (older) RPGs that can get a bit wild with math (and modifiers).

This is a great example of what I was talking about re: older games using math really badly and having weak/poor rules-design!

 

[CleverNickName]

The claim that "math nerds" need special RPGs to satisfy their needs is thus very questionable. Are "math nerds" truly pleased by the mere constant addition/subtraction of say, D&D 3.5E?

Well I'm a math nerd, especially probability & statistics. I've always loved math, and I've always been good at it (well, except for Vector Calculus, but that wasn't until engineering school.) I grew up playing D&D, and now I'm a civil engineer. And it may come as a surprise that I really don't like high levels of math in my games. 3rd Edition/Pathfinder was a real struggle, especially past 6th level.

If 5E hadn't come out when it did, and hadn't shifted away from mathematical complexity as much as it did, I would have probably switched my group back to BECMI instead. Believe me when I say it has nothing to do with my math aptitude, and everything to do with how I have fun.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I actually find the attitude that stuff like Lord of the Rings or Spiderman being more broadly celebrated being "appropriation" fairly distasteful. People always loved these things, just most people kept that on the down-low because they thought they were alone. Those of us who were more outgoing about our tastes don't "own" cool stuff.

I'd point out that if you went back in time, Lord of the Rings was associated more with hippies and counter-culture than any sort of geek culture - Frodo Lives buttons and graffiti, Led Zeppelin songs, Gandalf's Garden, and so on.

I still remember the deaths of Roy Fokker and Ben Dixon in Robotech back around 1985/86. It was the only cartoon series I can remember that included deaths. Whether it was a Veritech fighter or a Zentradi battle pod, when one of them took a missile to the face the pilot was almost certainly dead. I've long argued the biggest problem with violence on television for children is that you rarely see the consequences. I'm certainly not arguing the battles need to be as bloody as possible, but you could make age appropriate content showing that people get hurt when you fight. The Venture Bros. did a hilarious parody of the old GI Joe cartoon with their OSI.

Roy Fokker's death was traumatic. Robotech didn't shy away from depicting the cost of war.