D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[EzekielRaiden]

Why do you come to that conclusion? I wouldn't have the conclusion in the world axis or the current version of the wheel.

In both the "original" and the new one, Chaos has its exact set of five to seven planes. It stays nicely in its lane. It doesn't spread out and conquer and corrupt. Those planes follow clean, consistent cosmological behavior and always do those behaviors. A location can never be halfway between (say) Limbo and Mechanus; either it is in Mechanus, or it is in Limbo, or it is in Concordant Opposition, and in Planescape where the Great Wheel is the whole point and focus, if you made a blob of Chaos in Mechanus strong enough, you wouldn't have successfully made a invasion, you would've just carved a pointlessly small chunk off of Mechanus and either glued it to CO or (if you really outdid yourself) directly to Limbo. Invasion or meaningful conflict between planes is impossible, because Chaos by both choice and by enforced cosmic rules must stay in its lane.

That seems like your own bias or misunderstanding than the fundamental nature of the cosmos. I mean, it can be interrupted that way, but I certainly wouldn't

What bias? There are fixed and specific planes where Chaos is allowed to rule, and adjacent planes where it is not. This is simply objective fact from Planescape and other settings that use the Great Wheel.

I don't agree with that, but I haven't adventured a lot in the planes in any edition of D&D. For me, 4e was not different from 1e or 5e in that respect.

The elemental planes are all actively hostile to life and cannot meaningfully be adventured in either at all (Air/Earth), or without specific protections that must be perfectly maintained or you just near-instantly expire (Fire/Water/Positive/Negative). The Astral is essentially devoid of locations. The Ethereal is devoid of locations. And then half or more of the Outer Planes are either functionally identical (seriously, how many "lower" planes are "weird geometric shapes" or "ruined wastelands of suffering"?) or completely pointless to actually visit.

4e ensured that there were extensive adventure hooks in all four non-mortal-world planes (plus the Abyss, which is sort of a subplane): Astral Sea, Feywild, Shadowfell, Elemental Chaos. You could have literal 1st level characters stumble into the Feywild or Shadowfell or Elemental Chaos and actually have an adventure rather than just instantly expiring because "oops, negative energy drains all your life away, now you're dead" or "haha, the Plane of Fire is made of fire and now you've burnt to death." It's sure as hell risky for a lower-level party, but it's perfectly survivable even without powerful magic just to prevent near instant death.

The Great Wheel exists to codify the origin locations of things and to smush together as many mythologies as possible into a single space. It has nothing whatever to do with building a cosmos that is festooned with adventure for those brave enough to try. The World Axis started from asking how we could make myth and legend and folklore adventurable, not now we could turn it into a beautiful, pristine clockwork that perfectly accounts for every place and mode and aspect etc. etc.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I am just trying to point out that a lot of the arguments against the Wheel don't hold water, or only hold water if you think the various planes are physically arranged in some type of wheel. If you take the description of the Great Wheel cosmology as being literally (even when they tell you it is not) then sure it doesn't make much sense from certain perspectives. So if you want me to defend it I can, but that is not something I feel compelled to do.

To be clear, I don't think the Great Wheel is any better than the World Axis or World Tree or any other cosmology.* If I had to pick the Great Wheel or the World Axis, I would probably pick the World Axis. However, I would do that primarily because I prefer the lore behind it more, not because it is a superior cosmology. As I noted previously, my preference is a version of the marriage of the wheel and the axis that 5e as being move towards (with my own wrinkles thrown in of course).

Spoiler: * caveat

With one exception: spelljammer. The idea of crystal spheres and the pholgiston never made any sense to me. But I never dug to deep into that setting.

Whether they are literally in a wheel or not is irrelevant. It is the cosmological structure that matters, not their literal physical arrangement. The fundamental theory is a beautiful clockwork that has a place for everything and everything in its place, that accounts for absolutely all loose ends, that cleanly and consistently identifies everything that is or could be. It is a deeply and inherently Lawful conception of the cosmos, and it is, explicitly, the one and only correct analysis of the planes in those settings where it is used. All other analyses are simply wrong.

 

[Chaltab]

A setting that is legitimately both the World Axis and the Great Wheel.

What you seem to have here is "The Great Wheel with some extra stuff attached." That doesn't look like you've found a way to make the rather dissonant principles of the two cosmologies work together.

Like, if I took the World Axis and said that all of the alignment planes are really there, but as Astral Dominions, I wouldn't say that that "incorporates both." It fundamentally is the World Axis, it just allows players to visit some of the Great Wheel locations outside the context of the Great Wheel proper.

I suppose i don't make the 'dissonant principles' work together. I just use whichever lore I like better for a given plane, and that usually tends to be the Dawn War lore.

 

[dave2008]

In both the "original" and the new one, Chaos has its exact set of five to seven planes. It stays nicely in its lane. It doesn't spread out and conquer and corrupt. Those planes follow clean, consistent cosmological behavior and always do those behaviors. A location can never be halfway between (say) Limbo and Mechanus; either it is in Mechanus, or it is in Limbo, or it is in Concordant Opposition, and in Planescape where the Great Wheel is the whole point and focus, if you made a blob of Chaos in Mechanus strong enough, you wouldn't have successfully made a invasion, you would've just carved a pointlessly small chunk off of Mechanus and either glued it to CO or (if you really outdid yourself) directly to Limbo. Invasion or meaningful conflict between planes is impossible, because Chaos by both choice and by enforced cosmic rules must stay in its lane.


What bias? There are fixed and specific planes where Chaos is allowed to rule, and adjacent planes where it is not. This is simply objective fact from Planescape and other settings that use the Great Wheel.

Yep, that is your bias. There is nothing in the wheel cosmology that requires that. That is simply how you want to represent it. It is not inherent to the concept.

The elemental planes are all actively hostile to life and cannot meaningfully be adventured in either at all (Air/Earth), or without specific protections that must be perfectly maintained or you just near-instantly expire (Fire/Water/Positive/Negative).

First that is an old idea and doesn't hold true in the 5e version. Also, those plane always had places to adventure in as well. And finally, simply because a cosmology has places that are accessible, or only accessible at high level doesn't mean it is devoid of places to adventure. All the outer planes are adventure locations. That alone is more than was ever developed in 4e (not that the list was exhaustive - time being a thing and all).

The Astral is essentially devoid of locations.

It is not. Not only are the planes in the wheel in the astral sea, but spelljammer brought in many more locations. If you were unware, almost everything in spelljammer is in the astral sea.

The Ethereal is devoid of locations. And then half or more of the Outer Planes are either functionally identical (seriously, how many "lower" planes are "weird geometric shapes" or "ruined wastelands of suffering"?) or completely pointless to actually visit.

I actually just thought of etheral as a transitive plane. I am not really familiar with the lore in, before, or after 4e. I definitely don't remember any locations to adventure in the ethreal in 4e.

Edit: Just wanted to add that as @Chaltab noted both Eberron and the Radiant Citadel are locations in the Ethereal in 5e. That is not were Eberron is in my cosmology though.

4e ensured that there were extensive adventure hooks in all four non-mortal-world planes (plus the Abyss, which is sort of a subplane): Astral Sea, Feywild, Shadowfell, Elemental Chaos. You could have literal 1st level characters stumble into the Feywild or Shadowfell or Elemental Chaos and actually have an adventure rather than just instantly expiring because "oops, negative energy drains all your life away, now you're dead" or "haha, the Plane of Fire is made of fire and now you've burnt to death." It's sure as hell risky for a lower-level party, but it's perfectly survivable even without powerful magic just to prevent near instant death.

All such hooks all exist in the Wheel too though, an even more so in the 5e version which has all of that and more.

The Great Wheel exists to codify the origin locations of things and to smush together as many mythologies as possible into a single space. It has nothing whatever to do with building a cosmos that is festooned with adventure for those brave enough to try. The World Axis started from asking how we could make myth and legend and folklore adventurable, not now we could turn it into a beautiful, pristine clockwork that perfectly accounts for every place and mode and aspect etc. etc.

I generally agree with you in their origin and also agree with you the simplicity of the World Axis leads it to mythology well. The reason I like the World Axis more is in fact the mythology that is the basis of it more than the cosmology itself. However, the idea that you can't adventure in the Wheel cosmology is just foolish IMO.

 

[dave2008]

Whether they are literally in a wheel or not is irrelevant. It is the cosmological structure that matters, not their literal physical arrangement. The fundamental theory is a beautiful clockwork that has a place for everything and everything in its place, that accounts for absolutely all loose ends, that cleanly and consistently identifies everything that is or could be. It is a deeply and inherently Lawful conception of the cosmos, and it is, explicitly, the one and only correct analysis of the planes in those settings where it is used. All other analyses are simply wrong.

That is your understanding, that is not fundamental requirement of the cosmology. You are taking it to literally, so yes it does matter if it is literally a wheel or not.

I do want to be clear that I am not disagreeing with in regard to how the cosmology was developed by the game designers. I just find that largely irrelevant.

 

[Chaltab]

As far as I can remember, 4E didn't actually use the Ethereal Plane. Even the Oil of Etherealness just said you're 'removed from the physical world' without specifying where you go.

I include it in my model because that's where 5E has stuck Eberron and the Radiant Citadel

 

[Minigiant]

those do not feel like they lend them selves to setting or anything

Jotunheim allows for the classic Giant homes and big treasure. Giants, giant animals, dinosaurs, and big magic.

Dragonspire is more a controlled elemental plane with tons of classic strongholds with hoards.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I really like the 4E cosmology and when I make a setting, I often use concepts of it. I particularly like the Shadowfell and Feywild as mirror planes and prefer that over Ethreal Plane and the Plane of Shadows.
I also prefer the Elemental Chaos over dedicated Elemental Planes (and quasi-elemental planes).
I had to adapt an existing Great Wheel setting to it, I'd just say that these elemental planes are just areas of the Elemental Chaos where one element dominates. They don't really serve much as a place where anything - with or without adventurers - happens. And likewise, the Eathreal plane becomes the Feywild and the Plane of Shadows the Shadowfell.

 

[Staffan]

The Astral Sea is just more playable, so I appreciate it. But my actual favorite cosmology is Eberron's.

Eberron's cosmology is great for the purpose it serves in Eberron, which is primarily as an influence on the material plane via manifest zones, and to a lesser degree as a place from which some spiritual creatures originate. But it's not that great as a destination except for shorter sojourns. The Marvel-style cosmology fits better with a campaign focused on actual planar travel.

I actually think the Great Wheel can fit into your very BECMI approach to cosmology. The planes of the wheel are metaphysically connected, but not actually connected. Here is what the 2024 DMG says:

"Since the primary way of traveling from plane to plane is through magical portals, the spatial relationship between different planes is largely theoretical. No being in the multiverse can look down and see the planes arranged like a diagram in a book. No mortal can verify whether Mount Celestia is sandwiched between Bytopia and Arcadia; rather, this theoretical positioning is based on the philosophical shading among the three planes and the relative importance they give to law and good."

So you can easily have a few of many millions of planes and the planes of the wheel (or even the layers of those planes) are just some of them that have been found and connected (or not) via portals and such. Seems to fit in just fine to me.

Even if they are not physically connected, you still have a set of 17 aligned planes, one for each primary alignment and one "in between" each of those, plus Neutral. While these planes have other aspects, they are primarily focused on their respective alignments – while Carceri is the plane of imprisonment, that's secondary to its job as being the plane combining Neutral and Chaotic Evil. In addition, they serve as verifiable afterlives, which means that anyone who goes "Yeah, I'm going to be an a-hole to everyone and steal and murder my way to the top" is an idiot giving up eternal heaven for short-term gain (or, under the the Good Place rules, nullifies all efforts to do good because you know you'll be rewarded for it).

 

[occam]

In both the "original" and the new one, Chaos has its exact set of five to seven planes. It stays nicely in its lane. It doesn't spread out and conquer and corrupt. Those planes follow clean, consistent cosmological behavior and always do those behaviors. A location can never be halfway between (say) Limbo and Mechanus; either it is in Mechanus, or it is in Limbo, or it is in Concordant Opposition, and in Planescape where the Great Wheel is the whole point and focus, if you made a blob of Chaos in Mechanus strong enough, you wouldn't have successfully made a invasion, you would've just carved a pointlessly small chunk off of Mechanus and either glued it to CO or (if you really outdid yourself) directly to Limbo. Invasion or meaningful conflict between planes is impossible, because Chaos by both choice and by enforced cosmic rules must stay in its lane.

What bias? There are fixed and specific planes where Chaos is allowed to rule, and adjacent planes where it is not. This is simply objective fact from Planescape and other settings that use the Great Wheel.

I assume you're not familiar with 2e's Planescape setting, because almost nothing you've said above is true there. Chaos does not "stay nicely in its lane"; nor does Law, for that matter, nor Good nor Evil. It's repeatedly reinforced in the published materials that a constant push and pull exists between various ideological forces, which can at times result in meaningful change. A location is part of the Abyss not because of a neatly drawn static border, but because a particular strain of extreme Chaos and Evil holds sway there; if it were less extreme, it might instead be considered part of the Outlands, or part of Pandemonium if it's a shade more chaotic and less evil, and so on.

The fact that there are 17 Outer Planes in the Great Wheel's conception is simply a consequence of the structure of the alignment system, which itself is a straightforward result of opposing forces along two axes. But just because 16 of those 17 planes are drawn on diagrams as equally sized and spaced blocks of well-confined environments doesn't make them so, and they aren't represented like that in the fiction (of Planescape, anyway). There is always struggle, and the forces aren't necessarily perfectly balanced.

The elemental planes are all actively hostile to life and cannot meaningfully be adventured in either at all (Air/Earth), or without specific protections that must be perfectly maintained or you just near-instantly expire (Fire/Water/Positive/Negative). The Astral is essentially devoid of locations. The Ethereal is devoid of locations. And then half or more of the Outer Planes are either functionally identical (seriously, how many "lower" planes are "weird geometric shapes" or "ruined wastelands of suffering"?) or completely pointless to actually visit.

Again, in Planescape entire books and boxed sets were published for every one of these places (Astral, Ethereal, Elemental, and Outer Planes), detailing a multitude of adventuring locations, encounters, adventure hooks, and full adventures. How could an entire book be published about a place "devoid of locations", including locations such as Anavaree, Believer's Forge, the Castle at the Edge of Time, Fellfield, and Leicester's Gap? How could a book be published about places that "cannot meaningfully be adventured in" full of information about adventure locations, means of travel, and conflicts to engage with?

And if we take a look at Planescape's series of adventure modules, the very first one (The Eternal Boundary) climaxes with a trip to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Others travel to such "fundamentally identical" places as Elysium, the Beastlands, Mount Celestia, Carceri, Limbo, and Acheron, not to mention the adventure anthologies that range all over the multiverse.

The Great Wheel cosmology, even to the extent that you believe it's represented as some objective truth, is not the impediment to adventure gaming that you seem to think. Planescape set out to demonstrate that, successfully IMO.