D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[GusNBru]

I love the great wheel and planescape, it'sone of ny favourite settings, but I also like the 4e cosmology, I think largely because the mythology behind it resonates with real world myth.

I disagree that the great wheel is unplayable, I find it no different than the 4e cosmology in that respect.

I like the mythology aspect, and its simplicity to break down for new players. Everytime I've tried to explain the great wheel concept to new folks they pretty much glaze over. But if you go with World Axis style... they get it.

 

[GusNBru]

,"How do we make myth, legend, and folklore exciting places for adventure to happen in?"

This

 

[GusNBru]

just wanted to check in make sure you understand that the 5e version of the wheel has incorporated a lot of the world axis cosmology such as:

• Elemental chaos
• Feywild
• Shadowfell
• Astral Sea - which has dominion similar to 4e (see below)

You can see from the image below that various planes are even represented very similar to "domains" floating in the astral sea as they were in 4e.



I understand fully what they did. And the issue is, for NEW players for which I run alot of games for, don't fully grasp the concepts well and how it fits into playability. Its never been WoTC's strong suite to explain cosmology well. But if I explain World Axis as presented in 4e, new players seem to grasp those ideas much better.

 

[GusNBru]

You’re not weird to like what you like and dislike what you dislike.

I am also a HUGE fan of 4e’s cosmology. It got away from the straightjacketed symmetry of 1e and felt more mythic and plausibly naturalistic. (Yes yes, it’s all made up and “magic”, but you know what I mean.)

But I can understand why those who adored some of the sacred cows that were slaughtered by 4e’s cosmology were unhappy. (In some cases literally slaughtered, like Nerull was killed by The Raven Queen!)

I find new players resonant more easily with World Axis because of the mythology aspect.

 

[GusNBru]

Maybe a dumb question, but why does the cosmology matter? How does it impact your game at the table, at least at the beginning - and even later? As noted in the quote from the DMG24 above, the way to get to various planes is through gates or floating on the Astral Sea. The "spatial" relationship on a 2D map is just for human comprehension.

I do agree and like the idea though of Chaos trying to break down Order; but then again, I always was a fan of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. (Irony alert! It's the 2nd LAW, the LAW OF ENTROPY . It's got all the Chaos folx really pissed off tbh)

For new players, It's easier to digest especially if you want to adventure them through different aspects in order to open up new ideas on what D&D is. Currently, most newer players think D&D is just Baldur's Gate or the Sword Coast.

 

[dave2008]

I think we're talking across one another.

I am talking about how people IRL act.

Yes I was aware. I repeatedly said I was not talking about RL.

But in D&D, that level of ambiguity is gone. You can ask a god what interpretation of their rules is correct. You can check out what the afterlife or afterlives are like. So that removes a whole lot of tension from the world.

Well that is a choice of course, you don't have to play D&D that way. That is how I play generally, but that is definitely not how Eberron is set up.

Most of my games are low magic and use a version of the wheel/axis mash-up similar to 5e. However, my players almost never go to the planes or interact with gods. Heck, we don't even have a divine magic user in our current group. The existence of gods and the afterlife are very much not a verifiable thing for most of my D&D games. I did run a game once were the whole cosmos was self-contained in one world. So the PCs walked the same ground as the gods. That is one of a couple games I have run that had verifiable gods and divine realms.

 

[dave2008]

just wanted to check in make sure you understand that the 5e version of the wheel has incorporated a lot of the world axis cosmology such as:

• Elemental chaos
• Feywild
• Shadowfell
• Astral Sea - which has dominion similar to 4e (see below)

You can see from the image below that various planes are even represented very similar to "domains" floating in the astral sea as they were in 4e.



I understand fully what they did. And the issue is, for NEW players for which I run alot of games for, don't fully grasp the concepts well and how it fits into playability. Its never been WoTC's strong suite to explain cosmology well. But if I explain World Axis as presented in 4e, new players seem to grasp those ideas much better.

I do agree that the world axis lore is tight, that is the reason I like it better myself (the lore) if I had to pick one. Fortunately I can mix them up together add so of my own and get something I like better than either separately.

I will say new players understanding the cosmology easily is not necessarily a good thing. There is some value in a cosmology being a bit incomprehensible IMO.

Personally, cosmology is something that almost never comes up in my D&D games. It is something that I am interested in behind the scenes, but it is not something that my players typically care about at all.

 

[Aldarc]

Part of the issue is that alignment in itself is a bad thing, and anything that enforces it on the cosmological structure is equally bad. Plus, it is a matter of box-checking. The lower planes likely originate in Gygax taking out a thesaurus and looking up synonyms for "hell", with Jeff Grubb then adding some actual content to those planes.

They did? Where are the verifiable (i.e. non-mythical) accounts of people visiting The Elysian Fields, Hades, Asgard, or Hel?

For all the crap that 4e got about "grid-filling," which was highly exaggerated, it's incredible how those same people not only turn a blind eye but also offer apologetics for the blatant grid-filling that TSR did for the Great Wheel cosmology.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I liked 4E Cosmology from a design perspective. The vast majority of the Great Wheel (much as I enjoyed it back in the AD&D days) is pointless and underused. 4E streamlined everything and worked much better.

Planescape, for me, largely destroyed perception of the Great Wheel realms as dangerous places where only high-level characters should even think of treading. So 4E had the added advantage of ignoring that as well.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Jotunheim allows for the classic Giant homes and big treasure. Giants, giant animals, dinosaurs, and big magic.

Dragonspire is more a controlled elemental plane with tons of classic strongholds with hoards.

it is possible to have too many dragons, so why not merge them giants share an elemental theme?