D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[Joshua Randall]

Ever read a book on Cosmology or Quantum Physics? It will tell you much the same.

Books on cosmology and quantum physics are not games that I paid for because I wanted someone else to put some thought and effort into the game.

• Magic = bullcrap handwavium
• Classes = bullcrap handwavium
• monsters = bullcrap handwavium
• multiverse = bullcrap handwavium
• Hit Points = bullcrap handwavium
• Armor = bullcrap handwavium

None of those is bullcrap handwavium. Each has specific rules (except multiverse, struck through) as defined by the game rules. We are not told "well it could work like this, but maybe not, make it up yourself!"

 

[dave2008]

Books on cosmology and quantum physics are not games that I paid for because I wanted someone else to put some thought and effort into the game.



None of those is bullcrap handwavium. Each has specific rules (except multiverse, struck through) as defined by the game rules. We are not told "well it could work like this, but maybe not, make it up yourself!"

I disagree. Just because something has game rules doesn't make it not bullcrap handwavium. For example, I could give specific rules for the multiverse and it would still be bullcrap handwavium.

 

[Joshua Randall]

You are misinterpreting my phrase, then. I don't object to "we made up some rules for what is, tautologically, made up." The entire game is made up. Of course.

I object to "we made up some 'rules' or at least statements about the world of the game, but then we backed off from it and told the DM/player to figure it out themslves because hey, there is no truth, man, and anything possible, bro!"

 

[TwoSix]

I always think of those visual puzzles were an object viewed from an odd angle is difficult to identify or looks like something else. The multiverse has a great many more than the 3.5 dimensions we are able to perceive. Why shouldn’t it resemble a wheel when viewed from one direction, and a tree from another?

That's how I've always viewed it. Take a 4-dimensional slice of the X-dimensional whole, and it looks like the Great Wheel. Slice a different way, and now it looks like Eberron Orrery, or the World Axis.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Books on cosmology and quantum physics are not games that I paid for because I wanted someone else to put some thought and effort into the game

The point is, no one understands how the universe works. Not one single person (including aliens, should they exist). It’s completely ridiculous to suppose anyone in the D&D multiverse (up to and including gods) understands it either.

Handwavium equals realisticum.

 

[cbwjm]

You are misinterpreting my phrase, then. I don't object to "we made up some rules for what is, tautologically, made up." The entire game is made up. Of course.

I object to "we made up some 'rules' or at least statements about the world of the game, but then we backed off from it and told the DM/player to figure it out themslves because hey, there is no truth, man, and anything possible, bro!"

Sounds to me that they just don't want DMs to be constrained by the "official" lore, but those statements are still there, you can use them as the official layout of the planes and the way things work.

 

[dave2008]

I object to "we made up some 'rules' or at least statements about the world of the game, but then we backed off from it and told the DM/player to figure it out themslves because hey, there is no truth, man, and anything possible, bro!"

OK, but that doesn't feel like a valid objection when you are talking about the multiverse / spirit realms / extra-dimensional spaces in D&D. The foundation of D&D is "figuring it out" yourself. That is a big part of the fun and purpose of D&D (IMO). Then when you throw on top of it 50 years of often conflicting lore, I would much prefer they leave it up to the group instead of hard coding a set cosmology. As it is now, we have places in the multiverse and they can be arranged in an configuration you want. That freedom to me is an essential part of D&D and I am happy to see 5e embrace that.

 

[dave2008]

Books on cosmology and quantum physics are not games that I paid for because I wanted someone else to put some thought and effort into the game.

You may not like the result, and the result may not be worth the cost to you (which is valid), but it is ridiculous to imply no effort was put into it. I mean you can see it right their on the page. Heck, there is another thread on this forum complaining about why they included 40 pages on the planes in the DMG!

 

[Joshua Randall]

You may not like the result, and the result may not be worth the cost to you (which is valid), but it is ridiculous to imply no effort was put into it. I mean you can see it right their on the page. Heck, there is another thread on this forum complaining about why they included 40 pages on the planes in the DMG!

So back to the premise of the thread: 4e's cosmology is awesome, way better than the 1e junk that perpetuated itself all the way through 3e, and which 5e tossed out because it had to reject everything good 4e ever did.

There. I said something nice about all the effort that went into a cosmology. Just not the one that has taken over this thread, despite its title.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Am I just weird? I'm 57 in March and this summer will mark my 50th year in D&D. I've hated the Great Wheel ever since I can remember. The shift in Cosmology and the addition of the Feywild and Shadowfell in 4e I thought was brilliant. I was disappointed when 5e went back to the Great Wheel model. I've kept 4th edition Cosmology In all my stuff and refuse to let it go. A couple of my players say I'm being a "Boomer" about it

What are people's thoughts on the current Cosmology In 5e? Do you make use of it or ignore it? Do you run successful adventures in it? Inquiring minds want to know!

I started playing D&D (and roleplaying in general basically) with D&D 3E, and was slowly introduced to the cosmology of the Great Wheel. I think for any setting I made myself, I wouldn't use it. It just contained too much stuff that I didn't need or find interesting, especially with alignment planes and the like.

The 4E cosmology however works so beautifully for me that I take it kinda as a default option. I am even thinking about how to apply it to Monte Cook's Arcane Evolved/Diamond Throne setting.

And it's not just the cosmology. Also the story of the Dawn War appeals to me. I kinda want to have devils, demons and maybe even angels and nature spirits in my fantasy setting, but I prefer distant gods. The idea that there was a big war between the gods and the Primordials is just cool. And I can get the distant gods easily by saying the Primal Spirits aided the Gods but demanded them to stay away from the natural world, so far that the gods and the entire story of the Dawn War and gods becomes closer to speculation and myth than established theories on the nature of the world and the divine.