Star Trek and Idealism vs cynicism

[pukunui]

This is why I tend to look askance at Treks that feel too action-oriented (like Discovery often did). That stuff is a side dish to me, not an entree.

Interesting viewpoint because for me, Discovery was heavy on the nerdiness (tons of scenes of smart scientists figuring out solutions using technobabble) and leaned hard into “dialogue and rationality will resolve almost every conflict”.

Strange New Worlds is fun, and yet it’s nowhere near as nerdy or intellectual as Discovery was.

I would argue that Discovery was even more nerdy and technobabbly than TNG was.

 

[Bedrockgames]

One thing that has struck me over the years about Star Trek is how the optimism is viewed by fans. Its often said that the Federation has evolved into a Utopian society. However, you will notice that there is absolutely no Utopia outside the Federation. It is filled with savage barbarians, cold calculating beings, and untold numbers of dangers. It is the exceptional crew of the Enterprise (or other ship/station/etc..) that brings light to the darkness. Even when the heroes are wrong, they quickly reverse course and save the day.

You mess with that "exceptional" idea and things start to get real difficult to accept for some of these folks. When you realize that simply being a Federation citizen, and simply being a crew member of the Enterprise, doesnt make one exceptional alone. However, we the viewers are often only given the perspective of the Federation and its Starfleet officers, that we dont have a nuanced perspective. Enter DS9, and suddenly things are not neat, bright, and correct. The source of conflict is both external and internal and you quickly realize there really is no utopia anywhere but where the idealist make it. Which is by far more powerful a message than exceptionalism can ever be. However, that doesnt stop a lot of folks from being very uncomfortable with that perspective.

Dont mistake me for saying NuTrek S31 is good, it isnt, but I dont think the concept of what it takes to maintain a utopian society is one that should be avoided in Star Trek either.

Something to keep in mind is most people aren't saying they are uncomfortable with this stuff as a general thing, just that it doesn't bring them to Star Trek. I am all for cynical science fiction, I am all for dark stories in science fiction. I think a lot of the other posters have stated similar feelings. And I get that lots of people love Deep Space Nine. But for me, while I was fine with that stuff on Babylon 5, Deep Space Nine felt too dark for star trek for me (and I am not saying it was a badly written show or anything like that, just that, I come to Star Trek for the optimism and episodic structure (and the other things I mentioned). When the reboot hit, the tone was way off for me. Picard just seemed way too dark for that character. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Patrick Stewart was still working. I just really wished they had done a show that gave me what I loved about TNG and his role as Picard

 

[Micah Sweet]

Interesting viewpoint because for me, Discovery was heavy on the nerdiness (tons of scenes of smart scientists figuring out solutions using technobabble) and leaned hard into “dialogue and rationality will resolve almost every conflict”.

Strange New Worlds is fun, and yet it’s nowhere near as nerdy or intellectual as Discovery was.

I would argue that Discovery was even more nerdy and technobabbly than TNG was.

I don't see "action-oriented" and "nerdy and technobabbly" as opposites.

 

[MarkB]

Something to keep in mind is most people aren't saying they are uncomfortable with this stuff as a general thing, just that it doesn't bring them to Star Trek. I am all for cynical science fiction, I am all for dark stories in science fiction. I think a lot of the other posters have stated similar feelings. And I get that lots of people love Deep Space Nine. But for me, while I was fine with that stuff on Babylon 5, Deep Space Nine felt too dark for star trek for me (and I am not saying it was a badly written show or anything like that, just that, I come to Star Trek for the optimism and episodic structure (and the other things I mentioned).

DS9 is top-tier Trek for me. I wouldn't want to have missed it, and it strikes a good balance between lauding the Federation's ideals and showing how much they cost (as well as what it looks like from outside).

When the reboot hit, the tone was way off for me. Picard just seemed way too dark for that character. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Patrick Stewart was still working. I just really wished they had done a show that gave me what I loved about TNG and his role as Picard

Picard is such a weird show. It feels like three different shows, there's so little plot or character continuity between each season. I'd have much preferred that they left the Borg out of the third season, it felt like they'd finally laid that aspect of his story to rest in season 2.

 

[payn]

Something to keep in mind is most people aren't saying they are uncomfortable with this stuff as a general thing, just that it doesn't bring them to Star Trek. I am all for cynical science fiction, I am all for dark stories in science fiction. I think a lot of the other posters have stated similar feelings. And I get that lots of people love Deep Space Nine. But for me, while I was fine with that stuff on Babylon 5, Deep Space Nine felt too dark for star trek for me (and I am not saying it was a badly written show or anything like that, just that, I come to Star Trek for the optimism and episodic structure (and the other things I mentioned). When the reboot hit, the tone was way off for me. Picard just seemed way too dark for that character. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Patrick Stewart was still working. I just really wished they had done a show that gave me what I loved about TNG and his role as Picard

IDK, that sounds like discomfort to me. Drawn lines were its not appreciated if they are crossed. An inability to see the possibilities and an expectation of roads well traveled and rules observed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, just finished watching. While I can't disagree with any comment here regarding the glorification of an appaling "ends justify the means" philosophy, my main take-away is simply that Section 31 is a predictable, by the numbers action adventure with very little interesting or novel in it, and I have no desire to follow up with any series it is obvious designed (not written, designed) to be a backdoor pilot for.

 

[Mort]

Ok, just finished watching. While I can't disagree with any comment here regarding the glorification of an appaling "ends justify the means" philosophy, my main take-away is simply that Section 31 is a predictable, by the numbers action adventure with very little interesting or novel in it, and I have no desire to follow up with any series it is obvious designed (not written, designed) to be a backdoor pilot for.

It was actually supposed to be a TV series, but then COVID hit and it went into development hell. Then Michelle Yeoh won an Oscar and her schedule got way too wonky for a series commitment. But she still wanted to do the story and with the Oscar win Paramount was desperate to do the story - so it became a movie.

Touching story - too bad the movie isn't even worth it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

IDK, that sounds like discomfort to me. Drawn lines were its not appreciated if they are crossed. An inability to see the possibilities and an expectation of roads well traveled and rules observed.

It isn't. And I think farming this as 'an inability to see possibilities" when people have clearly stated they like it in other media is not an accurate representation of what folks are saying. Ifpeople are totally fine with cynicism in entertainment in general, but just don't like it in Star Trek. That doesnt' mean they are uncomfortable with the concepts. It just means that isn't what they want when they go to that franchise. It just doesn't fit the show for them. It feels like an awkward fit

 

[Bedrockgames]

DS9 is top-tier Trek for me. I wouldn't want to have missed it, and it strikes a good balance between lauding the Federation's ideals and showing how much they cost (as well as what it looks like from outside).

And to be clear I wasn't saying it was bad. I get why a lot of people like it

 

[pukunui]

I don't see "action-oriented" and "nerdy and technobabbly" as opposites.

I wasn’t suggesting they were. Just that I feel like Discovery was at times too nerdy and technobabbly. I never felt it was too action-oriented.

Honestly, my only real complaint with Discovery was that it needed more episodes per season. It needed more room to breathe, especially in the later seasons. It skimmed over a lot of the worldbuilding elements that you prize so much.