Star Trek and Idealism vs cynicism

[payn]

Well, "discomfort" is such a broad word that it can mean just about anything. If we ascribe any and all negative opinions of the show to "discomfort" then the word is not specific enough to be useful.



And, this is where you go too far. "Inability" - you have a negative opinion of the show because you lack the ability to appreciate it, making the opinion effectively a character or cognitive flaw of the viewer. That's bogus right there.

How about you scratch that - entertain that folks can see the possibilities just fine, but not like them.

Wholesale writing off concepts entirely seems like an inability to me. Bucketing things into belongs here not there just seems like enforcement.

 

[Umbran]

Wholesale writing off concepts entirely seems like an inability to me.

It "seems" like that to you? Upon what do you base that assessment?

Because we see no sign of you gathering any significant information here. In this discussion, you've put no real effort into exploring why people hold the opinions they do. You haven't asked others any meaningful questions about their positions.

Meanwhile, Section 31, as a concept, has been around for nigh 27 years. It has been explored in TV series and books, and discussions among fans, for decades. Folks have had a long, long time to see, discuss, and evaluate possibilities. They just haven't done it with you. And you certainly haven't invited them to do so here.

 

[payn]

It "seems" like that to you? Upon what do you base that assessment?

Because we see no sign of you gathering any significant information here. In this discussion, you've put no real effort into exploring why people hold the opinions they do. You haven't asked others any meaningful questions about their positions.

Meanwhile, Section 31, as a concept, has been around for nigh 27 years. It has been explored in TV series and books, and discussions among fans, for decades. Folks have had a long, long time to see, discuss, and evaluate possibilities. They just haven't done it with you. And you certainly haven't invited them to do so here.

What is there to discuss if the position of some is it should not be done?

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, the whole point is that humanity ACTUALLY has evolved beyond that and found a better way, just like the Federation actually IS a post scarcity society.

If that "evolution" is still being made possible by dark things done in the shadows than it is a facade and a lie - which is not what Star Trek is supposed to be.

One could argue that while some of the Federation's citizens (like our heroic mains) definitely believe in the idealism Star Trek is known for and fight for it at every opportunity, others, in many cases high-ranking folks with a lot of power, either believe in the "hard men" theory we've been discussing, or more likely are simply to prioritize their own safety and the safety of their lives ones. There are plenty of examples of this throughout Trek, including several examples in TNG.

 

[jian]

No, the whole point is that humanity ACTUALLY has evolved beyond that and found a better way, just like the Federation actually IS a post scarcity society.

If that "evolution" is still being made possible by dark things done in the shadows than it is a facade and a lie - which is not what Star Trek is supposed to be.

Exactly. Also, Starfleet Intelligence is already known to exist. Section 31 is an extremely secret organisation and thus it’s not the equivalent of the CIA, it’s the equivalent of a secret death squad answerable to no one, which is even worse.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Wholesale writing off concepts entirely seems like an inability to me. Bucketing things into belongs here not there just seems like enforcement.

This isn't what is happening. Saying "I like A better when is Y" Or "I like A less when it has X" isn't a wholesale writing off of X, or an inability to see its appeal. Most people who have said they don't like X in A, have also said "but I like X in B or C or D". So they are just expressing a preference for how they like A to be. Which isn't them saying you can't disagree with that preference, and it isn't them saying they can't comprehend why you would like X in A. People are going to have preferences and going to have reasons for why they go to a particular franchise, a particular series of books, etc. At a certain point, when the recipe doesn't feel right to them, they may lose interest in it. This angle of making it almost a character flaw because people think the balance of flavors is off in a particular handling of Star Trek just feels unnecessary to me. People like what they like, they dislike what they dislike. They should be able to express those opinions freely without it being seen as some kind of creative limitation on their part

 

[Bedrockgames]

Exactly. Also, Starfleet Intelligence is already known to exist. Section 31 is an extremely secret organisation and thus it’s not the equivalent of the CIA, it’s the equivalent of a secret death squad answerable to no one, which is even worse.

It is like making the rogue death squad cops in Dirty Harry: Magnum Force the good guys

 

[Bedrockgames]

It "seems" like that to you? Upon what do you base that assessment?

Because we see no sign of you gathering any significant information here. In this discussion, you've put no real effort into exploring why people hold the opinions they do. You haven't asked others any meaningful questions about their positions.

Meanwhile, Section 31, as a concept, has been around for nigh 27 years. It has been explored in TV series and books, and discussions among fans, for decades. Folks have had a long, long time to see, discuss, and evaluate possibilities. They just haven't done it with you. And you certainly haven't invited them to do so here.

I think in the course of these conversations, because all we have is text, it is easy to see peoples words as more severe or carrying some kind of 'ought' than intended. I will often form a judgment that I don't like something, and I will give my opinion as I have here. But I am always intellectually curious and my tendency after conversations like this is to watch or rewatch things with all the arguments in the thread in mind. So while I may hold the position that I think Star Trek workers better when it has more optimism, and I preferred TNG and OS to stuff like Deep Space Nine, I am inclined to rewatch Deep Space Nine with fresh eyes. Same with something like Section 31. This is why I don't think I am writing anything off or being dismissive. These are just movies and shows, it isn't a personal judgement on other people if we happen not to like them. But me saying "I think Star Trek is better when it is optimistic" doesn't mean I can't watch and engage with Star Trek that isn't doing that (I may be less inclined to but I still can, and can still get enjoyment even out of entertainment I find falls short or doesn't fit my taste)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also is anyone else having a weird time working with the quote function today?

 

[Ryujin]

I think in the course of these conversations, because all we have is text, it is easy to see peoples words as more severe or carrying some kind of 'ought' than intended. I will often form a judgment that I don't like something, and I will give my opinion as I have here. But I am always intellectually curious and my tendency after conversations like this is to watch or rewatch things with all the arguments in the thread in mind. So while I may hold the position that I think Star Trek workers better when it has more optimism, and I preferred TNG and OS to stuff like Deep Space Nine, I am inclined to rewatch Deep Space Nine with fresh eyes. Same with something like Section 31. This is why I don't think I am writing anything off or being dismissive. These are just movies and shows, it isn't a personal judgement on other people if we happen not to like them. But me saying "I think Star Trek is better when it is optimistic" doesn't mean I can't watch and engage with Star Trek that isn't doing that (I may be less inclined to but I still can, and can still get enjoyment even out of entertainment I find falls short or doesn't fit my taste)

There's a tendency for people to assume that every statement made is a "You shouldn't..." rather than, "In my opinion." That's a failure of the reader, not the poster, in the majority of cases.