D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

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But let's extend the metaphors. Let's take all the negative stereotypes about gamers. They are antisocial. They are nerds. They are fat. They don't understand hygiene. They are weaklings who can't do a single pushup. They hate girls. Now, let's make a monster named Grognard, make them chaotic evil, and put them in the Monster Manual as creatures to fight or bully. Let's make nearly every encounter with them one where the characters are supposed to beat them up or mock them. And we'll say "but some grognards can be good people".
Well, being a nerd isn't a negative stereotype... but anyway, IME most "gamers" like girls very much... they just had a hard time talking to them. And certainly not antisocial since gaming, is, a social event and was when friends met to hang out--often talking about girls we liked. So... I think your Grognard needs some work but putting that aside for now...

Bully or mock them? Even back in the day that really wasn't cool. Unfortunately, most people who went along did so because they were afraid of becoming the victim, themselves.

How do you feel about my grognard? I'm sure people will not connect them to real gamers. You certainly wouldn't be offended that they use the same language used to mock gamers in the real world. They're made up. Silly elf game. Get rekked grognard!
Well, I can only speak for myself, but no I don't connect with your Grognard at all. None of the people I played with really would have fit most of those stereotypes, either:

Antisocial? No, we all had friends as gamers and outside the game. I, myself, played sports and was a Scout in Elementary School.

Nerd? Nope. Smart, certainly. Near top of my class (or at the top depending on which grade...). But I was well-liked and social and such.

Fat? Not by a long shot! If anything, I was skinny then and, well, at 51, I am starting to put on some pounds... We had one "fat kid" in our group. That was it, and he wasn't antisocial or such either. He was more a class clown.

Poor hygiene? Well, we were boys so I'll admit sometimes it wasn't top of the list, but still we showered and brushed our teeth. :)

Weaklings? While not "jocks" or "sport-o's" I'm pretty sure all of us in school and college could do a push-up. Now, pull-ups were something else. ;)

Hate girls? LOL are you kidding? Teenagers in middle school and high school? We LOVED girls. At least half of us had girlfriends or dated. By the time college rolled around, using 1-3 members of my gaming groups were girls! (Well, women.)

So, no, I don't relate to your language use, etc. of a Grognard "gamer" at all. Now, I know some guys like that in one or two aspects, but even those we welcomed and didn't bully or mock. Maybe I just grew up around nicer people?

I mean, the game didn't tell me to go beat up gamers. It just said I'm justified in disliking fat, smelly, awkward creatures.

No offense, right?
Did it? Or did you just read it that way?

Y'all keep believing what you want. I'm done. I gotta get ready for game tonight. Can't wait to beat up some fat, smelly antisocial gorgnards tonight. Fictionally, of course.
Well, whatever you enjoy I guess--it's your game. 🤷‍♂️
 


For me, this will always be the iconic image I associate with for orcs.

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Evil, yes. But also with a touch of defiance and nobility.
 

So the problem is the "'finding' patterns and associations" goes both ways. This is why stereotypes are also bacd; just because the intent behind it isn't to further racism doesn't mean that people won't still make those associations. Best to avoid those specific associations altogether.
You can't. See if you can say one negative thing about a group in D&D that hasn't been said about a group in real life. At some point we have to stop letting bad guys who do and say bad things, appropriate words from our language so that they can't be used any longer. I'm not talking about slurs, which are different. Just words that have negative meaning.

There are examples in D&D that have gone beyond vague negative language like orcs have in their description, and are much more specific depictions of real world cultures. The Vistani/Romani connection is undeniable. You can't read the vistani and not see that they were created to be D&D Romani. The Orcs of Thar(I think that's the old one) had undeniable connections to Native Americans.

Without being clear cut like that, though, it's better to just let it be the coincidence that it is and have fun playing the elf game.
So I read this, particularly the bolded part, as saying that those of us who prefer our RPGs to have more nuance and better reflect the world as we would like to see it are having Badwrongfun. Is that your intention?
I'm of course not him, but I don't read that as saying you are having badwrongfun. My take on that it is that he wishes that you would see it as a happy elf game, not that you need to do so or you are doing it wrong.

The flip side of it, and I'm not saying you are doing this, but those who are making these connections to real world groups are basically saying those of us who want a happy fun elf game are doing it wrong and forcing their way on us by removing these things from the game.
 


The 5.5 Orc is more nuanced the Orc has been in the history of D&D, outside of edge cases like Eberron (which clearly inspired the new Orc take).
From the chapter six of the novel Once Around the Realms, published by TSR in 1995, I give you the following excerpt:

The orcs had met their match, and no further action was required.

The orc leader barked out another order, and two of his band came forward to assist their beaten comrade to his feet, chest still heaving in grateful inhalations. They bore him forward so that his father could face him. The leader's stern visage softened with relief as their comrade came around.

The leader tousled the bristles of his still-weak son's pate, and, turning back to the rest of his band, rapped out another order, at which point the rest of band started to retreat from whence they came. Father and son soon quickly joined them, following a lowly brute who dragged the corpse of their slain comrade.
 

Clearly you didn't grow up in the 80s lol. Being called a nerd or dork stung pretty bad in those days
I did grow up in the 80's, in fact I graduated in '91, and played D&D through the entire decade. 🤷‍♂️

By high school, I hung out with geeks, jocks, freaks, and even some preps (we didn't have many of those in my high school...but some). Our gaming group had a couple geeks, usually a jock or two who liked D&D from an older sibling, a few freaks who used it to escape life, etc. No one I would classify as a nerd, however. Maybe it was because I didn't belong to any one click I was able to move between them and our group consisted of similar individuals who might "sort of" belong to one group, but also moved around a bit? Sometimes I might have been called a geek or whatever, but none of the name-calling, etc. bothered me then just like none of this bothers me now. I've never cared what other people think of me, only what I think of myself. Maybe that is why I have a hard time understanding why people get offended by such language, etc.?
 


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