D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Alzrius]

I feel like this had come up in PF or something.

A little over three years ago, it looks like:

Pathfinder 2E Thread 'Paizo drops use of the word phylactery'

Oct 29, 2021

Paizo has discontinued the use of the word "phylactery" in its Pathfinder publications due to the word's origins as an item used in real-world religious customs.

I wish there was a better name than “soul cage”

Pathfinder Drops Phylactery From In-Game Terminology

Paizo has discontinued the use of the word “phylactery” in its Pathfinder publications due to the word’s origins as an item used in real-world religious customs. In the most recent chapter of Strength of Thousands, Pathfinder 2E’s current Adventure Path, Paizo noted that it would use the phrase...

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• darjr
• Replies: 647
• Forum: *Pathfinder & Starfinder

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[Sepulchrave II]

Well, that's a little more complicated. Most of the demon and angel lore in D&D is based on real world demonology, but the origins of much of that lore is not based on religious texts, but on apocrypha (texts of a religious nature that aren't sanctified by the church). It's a mix of folklore, obscure references to religious names, old mythology and some modern fiction (Pazuzu). Further, their are so many different interpretations that D&D isn't doing anything more than any modern movie or book author is.

Long story short, D&D's specific angels and demons aren't really any more religious than frost giants and nymphs are.

There is so much wrong with this post, I don't even know where to begin.

Not based on a religious text, but based on a text of a religious nature - which isn't a religious text because it's not sanctified by the church. Er...which church? Not seeing the difference between a religious text and a text of a religious nature.

The Book of Tobit - which contains Asmodeus - is canonical in both the Catholic and Orthodox churches: Council of Rome (CE 382), the Council of Hippo (CE 393), the Council of Carthage (CE 397), the Council of Florence (1442) and the Council of Trent (1546).

Pazuzu is an ancient Mesopotamian demon - late 2nd early 1st Millennium BCE. He's not modern.

Much of D&D's demonolgy/devilology draws on various Grimoires such as the Key of Solomon and Pseudomonarchia Daemonum. And Dante. And I would regard all of these - including Dante - as religious texts.

 

[Bae'zel]

Much of D&D's demonolgy/devilology draws on various Grimoires such as the Key of Solomon and Pseudomonarchia Daemonum. And Dante. And I would regard all of these - including Dante - as religious texts.

As an aside, after reading Acheron Press' Inferno and Apocalysse 5e books, I do think there's a lot of potential to bringing D&D's "devils and demons" to their Biblical roots.

For example, imagine if the Circles of Hell, Purgatory and all that was actually the real thing in D&D; that the "evil" gods (Baal, Shar etc.) were just Demon Princes or Arch Dukes (or former Angels like Lucifer)? And the whole war between devils and demons was just a cover for some horrible truth.

I admit that it is all very compelling. Acheron Press' take on the Inferno was a lot more interesting to me than the 9 Hells of D&D lore. To me, anyway.

What contributed to that thought train of mine was watching the new Nosferatu movie by Eggers, and seeing Wilem Dafoe's character invoking angels and demons of Goetia while doing an exorcism.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Biblical roots

As a couple of earlier posters point out, a lot of the stuff has nothing to do with the Bible, it’s accreted myth. And as for the rest, like D&D it depends on which edition you use.

 

[TiQuinn]

The Book of Tobit - which contains Asmodeus - is canonical in both the Catholic and Orthodox churches: Council of Rome (CE 382), the Council of Hippo (CE 393), the Council of Carthage (CE 397), the Council of Florence (1442) and the Council of Trent (1546).

It's also apocryphal. As someone mentioned above, D&D appropriated a LOT from other cultures and religions.

 

[Bedrockgames]

As a couple of earlier posters point out, a lot of the stuff has nothing to do with the Bible, it’s accreted myth. And as for the rest, like D&D it depends on which edition you use.

Demons do get mentioned in the Bible though and belief in demons is part of many forms of Christianity (and the Catholic Church still has exorcists for that reason).

Biblical demons are pretty different D&D demons as they are fallen angels and beings of pure spirit. And a lot of the theology around them is drawn from passages that aren’t clear (for example falling stars representing the fall of angels). But I also think drawing on popular folk beliefs and beliefs from books like the malleus malificarum works for an RPG

 

[Sepulchrave II]

It's also apocryphal. As someone mentioned above, D&D appropriated a LOT from other cultures and religions.

It’s apocryphal in Protestant traditions, yes.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Demons do get mentioned in the Bible though and belief in demons is part of many forms of Christianity (and the Catholic Church still has exorcists for that reason).

Biblical demons are pretty different D&D demons as they are fallen angels and beings of pure spirit. And a lot of the theology around them is drawn from passages that aren’t clear (for example falling stars representing the fall of angels). But I also think drawing on popular folk beliefs and beliefs from books like the malleus malificarum works for an RPG

Sure, I was just being pedantic about “Biblical”. Obviously there is a lot more to the various forms of Christianity than just the one book. Although “demon” tends to be a synonym for “someone else’s god”, such as Baal.

James rolled back on the Malleus Malificarum himself of course.

 

[Bedrockgames]

old mythology and some modern fiction (Pazuzu). Further, their are so many different interpretations that D&D isn't doing anything more than any modern movie or book author is.

i would say the Exorcist is very grounded in real world religious belief though. And it was based on a real exorcism (and pretty sure he got Pazuzu from Babylonian beliefs)

 

[Sepulchrave II]

As a couple of earlier posters point out, a lot of the stuff has nothing to do with the Bible, it’s accreted myth.

I mean, I’m not going to respond to this because of the Board’s rules. But I would have thought that the unvoiced retort should be fairly obvious.