D&D (2024) Githzerai Psion? Thri-kreen Psion? Where's My Psion?

The answer is simple. They shouldn't. And I'm of the opinion that Barbarian should be a fighter subclass.
something are a class because to do the concept it needs a full class or it will just suck.
I don't have objective answers, and it's constantly a case of playing catch up because it changes so fast, but my job certainly positions me to make observations. But frankly, I'm most amazed at just how badly out of touch people on these forums are. Does no one talk to kids? Does no one look at what books people are reading on the train, or are prominently displayed at the station book counter? Does no one play D&D with people who are 30 years younger than them? I have noticed people stating to cotton on to Romantasy, but that's a couple of years old. The current big thing is The Fourth Wing, which is currently on it's third book.
romantacy is a poor fit for how dnd is built and also has world-building worse than Harry Potter, some ideas are stealable sure but not much is worth taking as it is simply incompatible concept-wise, it would be like having dnd try to use the Hunger Games for a setting.
now if anyone can find anything worth stripping from them and could be integrated then we should.
Good designers don't try to anticipate trends. Good designers try to make mechanics and systems which are intuitive and interesting while supporting the fantasy the designer thinks is under-served. Whether under-served by the mechanics that exist or lack of exposure.

Forward-Thinking designers look at what people like and want, now, look at what's on the market, now, and either iterate what's on the market to be closer to what people like and want, now, or create something that fills a hole in the market. Sometimes they're also Good Designers.
the wise do all three.
 

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romantacy is a poor fit for how dnd is built and also has world-building worse than Harry Potter, some ideas are stealable sure but not much is worth taking as it is simply incompatible concept-wise, it would be like having dnd try to use the Hunger Games for a setting.
now if anyone can find anything worth stripping from them and could be integrated then we should.
It's all about making it fit, because Romantacy is where future players are coming from, just as they came from Conan and Tolkien in the 1970s.

It doesn't mean you need to change your game, but WotC sure have to change theirs. And will have to change it again a few years down the line to take whatever the next big thing is into account.

Actually, romantacy aint that hard, it's just putting more emphasis on social situations and less on combat.
 

Yep. Anyone with even basic approach to fantasy can recognize the difference between "I learned word magic from studying books" and "I meditate to make my mind magic stronger."
I can understand the desire to have a more clear definition of psionic classes but do the others have much of a better definition?
tell me people who can describe the dnd class of druid both rapidly, clearly and without having to directly reference itself?
Dune reference!
dune has mind powers and was derisively described by one adapter as fung fu in the desert.
 


It's all about making it fit, because Romantacy is where future players are coming from, just as they came from Conan and Tolkien in the 1970s.

It doesn't mean you need to change your game, but WotC sure have to change theirs. And will have to change it again a few years down the line to take whatever the next big thing is into account.

Actually, romantacy aint that hard, it's just putting more emphasis on social situations and less on combat.
improving the social aspect of the game is long desired but will take nothing sort of 6e to, my point is the more specific ideas of the setting the things we could do in principle tomorrow.
Well, I'm glad at least one person recognizes how utterly crap-awful WotC is at collecting survey data.

But I don't personally think your conclusion is actually accurate. Even if they did ask whether folks were okay or not, I have seen far, far too much vehement opposition. Folks who are merely okay with something rarely speak up. You have to have sufficient active, overt enthusiasm or it just won't cross that line. Getting 70% approval before you even begin iterating is just too high a bar for Psionics.

Hell, in a real sense it was too high a bar for D&D Next, which is what instituted that ridiculous standard to begin with!

I've encountered far too many people who are too invested in their vision of what "true" psionics should be--and we've seen at least a couple of those people in this very thread. And you always have the class minimalists who will rail against whatever you do no matter what, which add an inherent negative pressure that has to be overcome by greater positive pressure, not just "yeah, it's alright, sure" non-pressure.


I mean, by that standard, the difference between Pact magic and martial maneuvers is "literal semantics" because they're both per-short-rest resources that you get more of over time. The descriptions matter for the same reason any descriptions matter: we do not merely play Symbols & Spreadsheets.


Oh, I'm quite well aware that absolutely ZERO overlap would be pretty much impossible, and most folks who like psionics are also aware of this fact. But we've seen how one person in this thread is already annoyed by the idea of psionics that is simultaneously both (a) sci-fi flavored rather than pure "it's literally just another form of spellcasting" flavored, and (b) using any mechanics that aren't just Also Spellcasting, because some spells exist that do psionic-related things.


Okay? That has no impact on whether they can come into agreement right here and now. Which is why I claimed that (I believe) WotC needs to pick something and stick with it rather than instantly giving it up the moment it doesn't cross the threshold.
I do wonder if the designers simply do not care?

whenever you describe the factions mechanics always seem to be what you list rather than the thematics so from what I am getting is the the divisions are mostly mechanically based?

we know it has to be a caster and will not go higher than 9th-level spell/spell equivalents.
we know it can't default to heavy armour and likely should not have medium armour either.
we will likely want cantrips/equivalents.
if we go with power points it would be interchangeable with the power points of the monk for multiclass sanity reasons.
it should not be a cha caster
 

Nah

A different polling system gets it out of testing. But it still produces a psion >50% of the community doesn't want.
Not if we go by what happens here, and yes I know this forum isn't representative. That doesn't mean, though, that we can't be right. In threads here when I brought up the idea, I'd have 6-8 folks liking my post and agreeing with me, and only 1 or 2 in the thread saying my way or the highway.
 

Not if we go by what happens here, and yes I know this forum isn't representative. That doesn't mean, though, that we can't be right. In threads here when I brought up the idea, I'd have 6-8 folks liking my post and agreeing with me, and only 1 or 2 in the thread saying my way or the highway.
Yeah but as you said, here is not representative of the whole community.

It's a wizard, sorcerer, warlock situation.

One class can't fit all.
 

Yeah but as you said, here is not representative of the whole community.

It's a wizard, sorcerer, warlock situation.

One class can't fit all.
Again that doesn't mean that we are not right. We are not representative because of our make-up and so it cannot be assumed that we are not correct, but that doesn't mean that we are not correct. The average player doesn't really take part in online polls, either.

Edit: That's a great example by the way. I really like wizards, sorcerers and warlocks. One class can fit all(be liked) even if we have a favorite(mine is wizard).
 

something are a class because to do the concept it needs a full class or it will just suck.
This is, unfortunately, the key sticking point between class minimalists and...let's say "medianists" like me who want a larger but still constrained set.

Specifically, they reject the idea that it "will just suck" as a subclass. They think it will be perfectly adequate. Indeed, they may even consider the subclass itself a superfluous thing, undertaken only because having nothing that mechanically captures the idea (rather than doing so purely thematically or..."procedurally" for lack of a better term) would annoy other players.

Of course, I'm completely with you on this. There are some concepts that will execute on both the mechanical and thematic concept purely by being a subclass. For example, I'd say the Warlock does a very good job for covering the "touched by an angel" thematic and mechanical concept via the Celestial subclass, which kinda turns the class on its head relative to other Patrons, but in practice it works quite well and actually makes an extremely versatile character who can do a little bit of everything (especially in 5.5e, where pacts aren't exclusive.)

But there are other concepts that are simply too big to be compressed into the thin, meager space that subclasses permit. This is especially notable with classes where the base class is already suffused with features, such that making a too-powerful subclass would seriously disrupt game balance. The Fighter is a great example here, in that its base chassis has...a lot. There's a lot there. I'm not personally happy with the lot that is there, but my preferences are irrelevant to the question of whether there is a lot there or not. As a result of those things, it's hard to (for example) make a truly "support-heavy" subclass, because the Fighter is inherently starting from a high baseline of personal survival and personal damage output. (It's still behind other classes IMO, but 5.5e is at least trying to address that...even if it doesn't always succeed.)

And then there are some ideas that you can do a lesser/incomplete version as a subclass of another class, but you won't get the full impact without a proper class. My everpresent go-to for this is the Eldritch Knight versus the Wizard, and then analogizing that to the Battle Master versus the Warlord (or "Captain" or "Banneret" or "Torchbearer" or "Tactician" or whatever one likes if the term "Warlord" offends). That is, we live in a world where the Eldritch Knight is derived from the Wizard; it is explicitly and intentionally a lesser equivalent, a pale shadow of what a true arcane-focused learned spellcaster can be, albeit with dramatically more personal defensive and offensive capability. The Battle Master is to the Warlord what the Eldritch Knight is to the Wizard: a pale shadow of what a true Martial Tactics expert would be, albeit with dramatically more personal defensive and offensive capability.

The point of the previous passage (not that you need to hear any of this!) is merely to show that even if you establish that there already is a subclass for a concept (and thus doubly so if you merely assert that you could make such a subclass), that isn't enough to justify axing the concept. Nature Clerics exist alongside Druids. Battle Clerics exist alongside Paladins. Bards exist alongside Arcane Tricksters. Wizards exist alongside Eldritch Knights. Etc. The mere existence of a subclass analogous to a possible class, or a possible subclass analogous to a real or possible class, is not enough to say that a thing definitely shouldn't exist.
 


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