D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[pemerton]

Yes I recall you mentioning that.

Sure and neither do yours. But I definitely don't recall this conversation being a big thing at that time at all (certainly not in the mainstream gaming community). Not like it is now

Well, not long before I wrote my letter I sat in a sports stadium in a school where the crowd of students called out racial epithets when a boy of African descent came onto the field. In that same school, racial epithets were used routinely in addressing and referring to an Indigenous girl in my classroom.

Some of those students also played D&D. I don't think they worried about the racist implications of some fantasy tropes! But what does that tell us?

 

[pemerton]

Doesn't impact me. But changing phylactery does, so I care about it

What is the impact?

This is why it sounds to me like you do think you are owed something.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You did imply that some - many? - people who disagree with you are simply following a fashion. You also suggested that there concerns are merely "academic".

Academic concerns are not insincere, and neither are opinions formed from fashion. I don't doubt these are peoples real opinions or that they are really bothered by these things. Pemerton this isn't a rhetorical tactic I am going to keep responding to. I feel like you are sifing through my posts policing my consistency (which isn't realistic, people are going to take inconsistent position on a gaming thread). So feel free to keep doing this, but just know I won't be responding to posts that feel lawyerly like this anymore

Frankly, to me your talk of things being "taken away" - as opposed to the more accurate they published a book that I don't care for - does make it sound like you think you are owed something. To me, it sounds like you think that WotC owes you books that conform to your preferences.

You are free to think that. I don't feel they owe me anything. But I do like to give my opinion on what they put out, what changes they make, and where I would like to see the game go. None of us are owed anything from WOTC. That doesn't mean we can't have passionate opinions about editions of D&D

 

[Bedrockgames]

What is the impact?

This is why it sounds to me like you do think you are owed something.

I have already answered this question and I have already addressed whether I feel like I am owed anything. If you find those answers unsatisfactory, fair enough.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, not long before I wrote my letter I sat in a sports stadium in a school where the crowd of students called out racial epithets when a boy of African descent came onto the field. In that same school, racial epithets were used routinely in addressing and referring to an Indigenous girl in my classroom.

Some of those students also played D&D. I don't think they worried about the racist implications of some fantasy tropes! But what does that tell us?

It doesn't tell me that they shouted those racist epithets because of orcs. It tells me you went to school with racists. In the 80s blatant racism was more common. I saw it too when I was living in California (and I saw it to a lesser extent in Massachusetts). The vast majority of racist people I met, didn't play D&D and had no clue what an orc was. The people I knew who read Tolkien or played D&D were way, way less likely in my experience to be racist

 

[Voadam]

There is a story, not sure how true, that Gygax shared a pre-publication draft with four Japanese folks . . .

It is stated right there in the book on page 2 of 1e OA. Five not four though and I can't say whether it was Gygax or Cook or someone else.

 

[Stormonu]

I remember being a bit flumoxed when the game went from Lizardman to Lizardfolk, but eventually migrated to using it, and prefer it now. I can't even remember when that happened now.

 

[Voadam]

So this sexist rule was introduced earlier than OA, but was it handled differently in OA? Was it worded differently in that Asian fetishization way?

Because if so (ie, comeliness being handled differently in OA than its predecessors) then it certainly was worth bringing into focus.

It had different racial adjustments for the OA races as opposed to the PH demihumans. No Asian specific characterization or fetishizing. It included all the ability score tables so it could be used as an alternative to the PH and UA.

 

[Dire Bare]

Yes I recall you mentioning that.

Sure and neither do yours. But I definitely don't recall this conversation being a big thing at that time at all (certainly not in the mainstream gaming community). Not like it is now

These conversations about race, gender, and culture in fantasy media and gaming . . . yeah, we're having these a lot more today than we did in the 80s.

It's why I don't get upset at Cook for OA.

But it doesn't change the fact that OA is a problematic work. And that the way D&D uses the word "phylactery" is problematic. And to get back on topic somewhat, why the way fantasy has portrayed orcs and drow has been problematic and needs to change. Both back in the 80s and today.

Our awareness as a culture has grown, the situation itself hasn't changed much.

 

[Dire Bare]

It doesn't tell me that they shouted those racist epithets because of orcs. It tells me you went to school with racists. In the 80s blatant racism was more common. I saw it too when I was living in California (and I saw it to a lesser extent in Massachusetts). The vast majority of racist people I met, didn't play D&D and had no clue what an orc was. The people I knew who read Tolkien or played D&D were way, way less likely in my experience to be racist

Sigh.

Who's claiming that the D&D players yelled racist slurs because they had orcs in their D&D games? Not @pemerton, not anyone else in these discussions.

Folks were racist when they watched sports games. Folks were racist when they wrote D&D books. The first is an example of explicit, purposeful hate. The second an example of systemic, unintentional racism. Both were accepted at the time. Both are racism. Both are wrong. Both need to be left behind in the dustbin of history.