D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Clint_L]

The changes they may impact all of us. It makes the new editions more or less viable. Again if it is a meaningless change to you, fair enough. I find changes that take our flavorful words like this have a big impact for me

Your argument is that words that have an actually prejudiced history should be left in because you personally find them flavourful? Maybe I missed something. Can you clarify?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Your argument is that words that have an actually prejudiced history should be left in because you personally find them flavourful? Maybe I missed something. Can you clarify?

My argument is phylactery is not a problematic term and that we should spend less energy sifting for problematic language, and more energy focused on having flavorful content. I don't think the lich was doing anything particularly bad, prior to these changes. If you have to explain to people why a term is bad, and it isn't striking people as bad, I think you are overthinking the problems. Antisemitism is a very serious problem in the real world. But I don't think Lich is contributing to it

 

[QuentinGeorge]

The

It doesn't tell me that they shouted those racist epithets because of orcs. It tells me you went to school with racists. In the 80s blatant racism was more common. I saw it too when I was living in California (and I saw it to a lesser extent in Massachusetts). The vast majority of racist people I met, didn't play D&D and had no clue what an orc was. The people I knew who read Tolkien or played D&D were way, way less likely in my experience to be racist

About as

To correct the issue, Comeliness originally appeared in Dragon magazine during 1e, was reprinted in 1983 in the World of Greyhawk boxed set, then in 1985 in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and then later in 1985 in the 1e Oriental Adventures. It never appeared again to my knowledge (it wasn't in the 3e OA).

The closest we got was the “Appearance” sub ability in Skills and Powers.

 

[Hussar]

we should spend less energy sifting for problematic language, and more energy focused on having flavorful content.

What energy? THe change took all of 2 seconds to make. More energy has been spent bitching about the change than was used actually making the change. And, again, what loss of flavorful content? What evidence do you have that material has been negatively impacted by people being more careful about including offensive material?

That's the key point. It's been nearly a decade since all this started with changes to the art and verbiage, and there has been ZERO evidence that this has had any chilling effect on creativity.

 

[Bedrockgames]

What energy? THe change took all of 2 seconds to make. More energy has been spent bitching about the change than was used actually making the change.

I don't think this was a two second change. But the community in general has spent, in my view, an inordinate amount of time dealing with this kind of focus on language and how things are expressed in the past ten years. I feel like I have already spent a lot

And, again, what loss of flavorful content? What evidence do you have that material has been negatively impacted by people being more careful about including offensive material?

I feel like I have already answered the first question a number of times. But I am not sure I understand the phrasing of the second

That's the key point. It's been nearly a decade since all this started with changes to the art and verbiage, and there has been ZERO evidence that this has had any chilling effect on creativity.

Look, I just don't think the claim that it hasn't holds water. Are there academic studies and have people been amassing evidence ? No. That isn't how people function in life on these topics. But everyone who participates in the hobby and everyone who participates in design, I think if they are honest with themselves can see and sense the chilling effect. If you don't see it, fair enough. But I am operating from a perspective where I can see it and I am always hearing from people who sense it as well. At the same time, it is up to you what you want to think about this and what you want to believe.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

As I said...

It goes both ways.

Which is why I felt this:

is the best way.

Okay, fine. You guys want to portray the side I’m on as being intolerant of other perspectives and wrong because of our surety that our way is right, and yours as the scrappy underdogs fighting against oppression. Sure. That’s precisely the sort of “co-opting inclusive sounding language” I was just talking about, but I’ll own it.

I am sure in my position that racism, sexism, and other bigotries that our hobby is rooted in are bad. That this is deeply embedded in our hobby. I believe perpetuating bigotry and the stereotypes associated with them is morally wrong. People that disagree with this simple statement that “bigotry is bad, and we should try to remove it from the hobby” are at best burying their heads in the sand refusing to see reality. I will not say what the “at worst” is.

However, I take things on a case by case basis and make up my mind based on the discussion and evidence I’ve seen. I have been persuaded to see different perspectives and I have changed my opinion on certain issues because an argument convinced me. I am having difficulty recalling a single time when the anti-inclusive side did the same. This isn’t a case of WotC “going to far.” To most folk that oppose these changes made for inclusivity, they opposed all the changes made for inclusivity.

Phylacteries? I understand why WotC, Paizo, and Bethesda changed the word. I think it’s good for them to distance themselves from the term. I will probably continue calling it a Phylactery out of habit, but I think it’s good that they’re at least trying.

 

[Bedrockgames]

THe change took all of 2 seconds to make. More energy has been spent bitching about the change than was used actually making the change.

Certainly we have spent a great deal of energy on this topic. I choose to do so because I think the impact of things like the ongoing debates about orcs and colonialist dungeons have massive implications for the future well being of the hobby so I think it is important for people to weigh in and push back on a lot of these ideas if they disagree with them. The orc thing in particular I have been making a point of weighing in on since I first became aware of it being discussed because I think fretting over evil orcs or killable orcs, is one of the worst things to take hold in a long time

 

[Scribe]

People that disagree with this simple statement that “bigotry is bad, and we should try to remove it from the hobby” are at best burying their heads in the sand refusing to see reality.

I don't think most, or anyone I still see, would disagree with this.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I don't think most, or anyone I still see, would disagree with this.

They may say that, but words and deeds often tell different stories.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don’t think there is a lot more I can ad to the discussion but this point is worth commenting on. That isn’t the case. People aren’t concerned, or at least I am not concerned, about changes made fifteen, twenty, thirty or forty years ago. You seem to think I am opposed to progress which simply isn’t the case. My point is something very different started happening about ten years it so ago where it became more about minutiae and an intense focus on language and purifying tropes.

Nope. That is the same stuff. It is exactly the same project. The difference is that instead of rolling aside boulders, we are lifting stones and sweeping gravel. You want to make this about "purifying language" when we've been working on getting people to stop using slurs for a long, long, long time.

Because if you think people aren’t overreacting by worrying about evil orcs, you get labeled something nasty or associated with a political ideology you have no love for. It is the combination of the priority this has become, the intensity and fine tooth comb focus of it, that is different. It just has started to feel like it reached the point of self parody

No. It hasn't. And you can never point to actual, real harm done by making these changes, just the vague threat of people "going too far". A threat which frankly, I tend to find laughably weak.