D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Maxperson]

Here you guys go (1e and 2e)

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The half-orc is almost twice as strong. He can press 100 pounds more, carry more than double, has much better chances to open doors, can still attempt to open magically barred doors while the gnome can't even try, and has nearly twice the gnome's bend bars/lift gates.

 

[pemerton]

I suspect, given how intense your reactions are to me, that there is the possibility a part of you suspects I am right (otherwise, you can just dismiss my opinion as not relevant or meaningful). But the evidence is people in threads like this telling you they don't like these changes and why.

That first sentence is just bizarre - now people disagreeing with you is evidence that they really agree with you? And why does that not go the other way - the intensity with which you post on this issue surely suggests that you secretly suspect that the other side is correct!

As for the second quoted sentence, the question immediately arises - how representative are they? Given that WotC chose to publish The Radiant Citadel, presumably on the basis (among other considerations) of market research, my inference is that those people are not very representative.

 

[Chaltab]

If Grognards.txt was still a thing this thread would be a gift to them.

 

[Hussar]

I am not sure what kind of evidence you even want me to supply. This is based on what I am seeing and hearing from people in conversations and posts I see people making online. I am not going to link peoples posts in threads just to prove a point. If you don't accept that this is going on, that is totally fine. You don't have to agree with me.

Why not? If these are posts on public forums, then there is zero problem with providing quotes.

I am not asking for statistical evidence. I am asking for ANY evidence. Any. Just the merest whiff of evidence. The gentle waft of a single shred of evidence other than, "well, this is what I hear".

 

[Parmandur]

That first sentence is just bizarre - now people disagreeing with you is evidence that they really agree with you? And why does that not go the other way - the intensity with which you post on this issue surely suggests that you secretly suspect that the other side is correct!

As for the second quoted sentence, the question immediately arises - how representative are they? Given that WotC chose to publish The Radiant Citadel, presumably on the basis (among other considerations) of market research, my inference is that those people are not very representative.

Heck, WotC hired one of the Radiant Citadel writers, who was one of the Asians Represent podcast panelists, to be one of the Designers in the Core books.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The half-orc is almost twice as strong. He can press 100 pounds more, carry more than double, has much better chances to open doors, can still attempt to open magically barred doors while the gnome can't even try, and has nearly twice the gnome's bend bars/lift gates.

Yeah the percentile score differences were often quite dramatic.

 

[Parmandur]

Why not? If these are posts on public forums, then there is zero problem with providing quotes.

I am not asking for statistical evidence. I am asking for ANY evidence. Any. Just the merest whiff of evidence. The gentle waft of a single shred of evidence other than, "well, this is what I hear".

Methinks thou shalt grow long in the tooth ere any such proof is forthcoming.

Has thou considereth the virtue of the Ignore function when faith hath run dry?

 

[pemerton]

Here is what I take @Remathilis's claim to be:

In AD&D (Gygax's PHB - I don't know how different 2nd ed is), both Gnomes and Half-Orcs have a minimum strength of 6.

In AD&D, a male Half-Orc has 4 times the chance of having percentile strength as a male Gnome (roll of 18 vs roll of 17 or 18, because of the +1). There is then a 50% chance of having a greater percentile roll.

So out of 206 male Gnomes (ie rolls of 6+ on 3d6) compared to 212 male Half-Orcs (rolls of 5+ on 3d6, as the +1 brings them to the minimum), 2 of the Half-Orcs are stronger than the strongest Gnome (ie of the 4 who rolled a 17 or 18, the two who also rolled 51+ on the percentile dice).

That does not suggest some wild difference in strength across the two populations as a whole.

 

[ezo]

So the difference between a 3 ft gnome and a 7 ft half-orc is 40% of exception strength (if you roll an 18) and a 5% adjustment between a roll of 6 and 17?

That better shows my point than his.

I don't see how... we know nothing of the physiology of fictional races. I mean, just going by the numbers, all we know is the potential for male the half-orc is about 37% greater than the male gnome.

And, as a point of interest, the half-orc has a base height if 5'6" in 1E, not 7-ft tall--- and gnomes are 3'6", not 3 ft.

So, the average half-orc (male) is 57% taller than the average gnome (male), and has 37% greater strength potential. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Parmandur]

Here is what I take @Remathilis's claim to be:

In AD&D (Gygax's PHB - I don't know how different 2nd ed is), both Gnomes and Half-Orcs have a minimum strength of 6.

In AD&D, a male Half-Orc has 4 times the chance of having percentile strength as a male Gnome (roll of 18 vs roll of 17 or 18, because of the +1). There is then a 50% chance of having a greater percentile roll.

So out of 206 Gnomes (ie rolls of 6+ on 3d6) compared to 212 Half-Orcs (rolls of 5+ on 3d6, as the +1 brings them to the minimum), 2 of the Half-Orcs are stronger than the strongest Gnome (ie of the 4 who rolled a 17 or 18, the two who also rolled 51+ on the percentile dice).

That does not suggest some wild difference in strength across the two populations as a whole.

I mean, I think you van say a lot about Gygax and adjustments...but that is actually a pretty fair spread of numbers for an acturial table showing the complexities of population comparisons.