D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Parmandur]

Right, but you have to take the condition in context with its sources. The invisible condition doesn’t say it makes you impossible to see, but it might not need to, if the source of the condition makes you impossible to see (without a more specific rule like truesight allowing it). So we check the invisibility spell (and the greater invisibility spell). Nope, they don’t say you’re impossible to see. But obviously you should be, or else the spell is useless. So, we might assume that this is intended to be implied by the fact that the condition is literally called “invisible.” But then we find that the hide anction also grants this condition, and it does not say that you can be seen as a specific exception to how the condition works. Therefore, either hiding must make you impossible to see, or the invisibility spell must not. This would be true regardless of what the name of the condition, the spell(s) and the action were. The problem is with how the effects themselves are worded; none of them actually specify whether or not a creature with normal vision that is looking directly at you can see you, which inevitably creates an unintuitive result with either the spell or the action.

The Spell Invisibility overwrites the normal methods which end the Invisivle Condition, so line of sight and cover no longer matter.

 

[Charlaquin]

I mean, I still don't believe it is broken or non-functional, irregardless to Mike Mearls take.

Then you’re just incorrect. See my above post.

 

[Parmandur]

Then you’re just incorrect. See my above post.

I don't buy that take, either: the way the specific rules of Invisible Spell overwrite the general rules of the Invisible Condition are logical and clearly laid out in the text.

 

[Charlaquin]

The Spell Invisibility overwrites the normal methods which end the Invisivle Condition,

It overwrites what ends the condition. But it doesn’t overwrite what the condition does when you have it and being unseen by creatures that lack truesight is not among the things it does when you have it.

 

[WanderingMystic]

See I am firmly in the camp that in order to find a hidden person that is the search action or a passive perception check. If that check is not made then they are for all intensive purposes invisible.

Now a DM should take into account situational modifiers, if your rogue is just running straight into the enemy in an open room with nothing that they could use to help hide them that person is going to get massive bonuses to their perception check.

Giving them the ability to have the invisible condition allows your rogue to melee and make that sneak due to being hidden. A hidden rogue in the middle of combat will be able to use the confusion of the battle field to close the distance to get that sneak attack.

Two guards I a room grant advantage to their passive perception so probably about a 20. I can also see things like lighting and how empty a room is or how the rogue is sneaking around to have other modifiers so while the rogue won't loose their invisibility by just being in line of sight they will need to have a good role on that hide check or the guards will spit them.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't buy that take, either: the way the specific rules of Invisible Spell overwrite the general rules of the Invisible Condition are logical and clearly laid out in the text.

That’s great, but “creatures can’t see you unless they have special means of vision such as blindsight or truesight” is not among the specific rules of the invisibility spell, nor is it among the general rules of the invisibile condition. In the absence of any rule saying it is the case, we must either assume it is not the case (leading to an unintuitive function of the spell) or assume that it is meant to be inferred without explicit wording (leading to an unintuitive function of the action).

 

[Charlaquin]

See I am firmly in the camp that in order to find a hidden person that is the search action or a passive perception check. If that check is not made then they are for all intensive purposes invisible

*intents and purposes

 

[Parmandur]

It overwrites what ends the condition. But it doesn’t overwrite what the condition does when you have it and being unseen by creatures that lack truesight is not among the things it does when you have it.

Yes, it does, being in their line of sight no longer ends the condition.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yes, it does, being in their line of sight no longer ends the condition.

Being in their line of sight doesn’t normally end the condition. Neither the condition nor any of its sources say so.

 

[Reynard]

It overwrites what ends the condition. But it doesn’t overwrite what the condition does when you have it and being unseen by creatures that lack truesight is not among the things it does when you have it.

Really, "condition as a set of effects" is the major culprit here. "Invisible" should mean just that, and it seems to under the spell, but not under the results of a successful hide check. It is very weird.