D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Sorinth]

Someone should have told this to the designer who wrote the rules for hiding, because the line, "When you try to hide, you use the Hide action," completely misrepresents the core game loop. Your description of how hiding works is clearer and more insightful and than anything present in the core rules.

For sure things could've been worded/presented better, but the rules do say exactly what I presented.

The DMG under Resolving Outcomes says "Players shouldn't just roll ability checks without context: they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to" and then a few sentences later "Call for a D20 Test only if there's a chance of both success and failure and if there are meaningful consequences for failure".

 

[Epic Meepo]

For sure things could've been worded/presented better, but the rules do say exactly what I presented.

The DMG under Resolving Outcomes says "Players shouldn't just roll ability checks without context: they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to" and then a few sentences later "Call for a D20 Test only if there's a chance of both success and failure and if there are meaningful consequences for failure".

Sure. And I would have liked the rules a lot better if they had consistently said that. Instead, we have a game that relies on exception-based design presenting the reader with extremely precise, key-word-laced rules for hiding that one could arguably interpret as an exception to the default game loop.

They could have gone 100% natural language, rulings-not-rules, "here are a few examples of how to resolve common situations." Instead, they decided to go mostly natural language, but with just enough oddly-defined keywords to make me question if and when I should be using natural language definitions of words.

 

[Maxperson]

I never said anything about passive perception. The DMG (p.35) says this, which is also on post #549:

Using the previous scenario, the DM can make the call to run an active Perception check (instead of the Search action) for the creatures to detect the player that's out in the open on the player's turn. Why? Because the text in the Hide action doesn't say "take the Search action"; it only says a Perception check, and if you step out in the open then it's fair game.

So, when do you take the Search action? In this scenario, that would be the creature on it's turn to search for you, if it's aware that you're hiding somewhere.

Feel free to correct me, but that is how I interpret this along the DMG guidance

Passive perception on page 372 says this.

"Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature's general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check."

That indicates that you use passive perception unless the player has his PC check around.

On the other hand, passive perception on page 40 says this.

"Sometimes your DM will determine whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check"

That indicates that you can do as you say above. The book is essentially contradicting itself on perception vs. passive perception, so it's the DM's call which way to go on it.

 

[KYRON45]

I just don't find hiding or stealth or being sneaky as valuable as everyone else does. Maybe I'm just D&Ding wrong.

 

[James Gasik]

It's been so long since I found Stealth to be viable in a TTRPG I don't make characters who rely on it. Even my long-running multiclass 2e Thief character has magic items that augment or supplant his innate stealth, to the point that the ability that gets the most use is Detect Noise! In fact, if anything, I'd love to tell my past self to be a Fighter/M-U instead, lol.

Certainly, attempts to "scout ahead" in the current century have inevitably led to solo encounters (or ones I have to survive long enough for my allies to come save me) often enough that if I am trained in Stealth, I don't bother advertising that fact.

It's far easier to do end runs around Stealth with magic (Familiars, Wild Shape, Polymorph, etc. etc.). The last time I had to sneak anywhere, the DM was kind enough to rule that Wind Walk was sufficient to avoid detection (not that the spell says such a thing, but he said it felt logical, and I was certainly not going to argue the point!).

 

[ezo]

If there are no time constraints then why?

Because if a PC wants to chop down a door, they are attacking it. Frankly, without a time constraint or something for tension, I have to ask why are you even narrating this???

So, what about a PC who wants to pick the lock instead of chop down the door with an axe? Do you "just let them do it"? No time constraints, etc. etc. etc.

 

[KYRON45]

Because if a PC wants to chop down a door, they are attacking it. Frankly, without a time constraint or something for tension, I have to ask why are you even narrating this???

So, what about a PC who wants to pick the lock instead of chop down the door with an axe? Do you "just let them do it"? No time constraints, etc. etc. etc.

Would you make a PC roll for chopping firewood?

 

[ezo]

Would you make a PC roll for chopping firewood?

Why would it ever even be part of the game?

Is there tension involved? A time constraint? What sort of challenge does it present to the players and their PCs??

 

[Maxperson]

The basic game loop isn't players performing Actions, it's them telling the DM what they want to do and the DM adjudicating what happens. There's no chance of failure to hide when nobody is looking so it just happens, you have succeeded in hiding behind the tree without needing to make a roll, just like you succeed at riding a horse without making an Animal Handling check right up until something comes along that makes success/failure uncertain. At which point the uncertainty is resolved with dice.

Player: "Okay. I'm going to hide behind the tree."
DM: "You hide. Don't bother rolling."
Every player: "Great! There's nothing out there that can see us, so we're somewhat safe."

Or...

Player: "Okay. I'm going to hide behind the tree."
DM: "Give me a stealth check to hide."
Every player: "Uh, oh! Something is nearby."

The players may not say those last parts, but they are going to be aware when something is around and when the area is clear that way. I prefer to always have the stealth check happen. That keeps the players unsure about whether something is really out there, and gives me the number I need just in case something is there or will be wandering by.

 

[KYRON45]

Why would it ever even be part of the game?

Is there tension involved? A time constraint? What sort of challenge does it present to the players and their PCs??

Isn't the question why would you roll to attack a door if there is no tension or time constraint?