D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[Minigiant]

I think it's an older problem than 2014.

Same with Monk. It's always been an iffy class.

100%

High level has always been an afterthought in D&D in all but one edition. Afterthoughts tend to not sell unless there are other attractive elements.

 

[Zardnaar]

100%

High level has always been an afterthought in D&D in all but one edition. Afterthoughts tend to not sell unless there are other attractive elements.

High level means different things in different editions.

Early on you didn't really have 1-20. It was more like 1-10 or 1-12.

Kinda had to extrapolate higher some classes couldn't do that until UA.

1-20 isn't even a thing until 1989 in a core book.

B/X was about the best for high level.

One person's high level play is bloat for another. 2 editions stretched it to 30+.

 

[tetrasodium]

That doesn't mean deliberately designed high level to one shots only. They may have just not cared or thought about high level that much. Consequences can be and often are unintended.

The level of effort in ignoring the point is painful. It doesn't matter what they were deliberately making design choices to simplify for whole not considering the results of those deliberate choices on other areas of play. The end result of deliberate design choices in 5e is still that only the one one style of high level gameplay has the mechanical tools needed.

 

[Minigiant]

The level of effort in ignoring the point is painful. It doesn't matter what they were deliberately making design choices to simplify for whole not considering the results of those deliberate choices on other areas of play. The end result of deliberate design choices in 5e is still that only the one one style of high level gameplay has the mechanical tools needed.

Exactly .

The core issue is that the designers only designed for long, attrition based, dungeon play for high levels. However they didn't care enough about high levels to seriously balance it.

It was just "Well you only get 1 slot for each level above 5th level. That'll do it. 8 room dungeon and you only have 4-6 good spells per caster.".

No one went back and thought "The math ain't mathing? That means 2 full casters have 8-12 top spells for 8 encounters. 3 casters is 12-18. The nonCaster will never shine.." Nor "What about Playstyles with less that 6 encounters?". Whether deliberately or accidentally.

 

[Horwath]

It's really simple

High level D&D is ..

1) High level magic spells
2) Low level everything else with 200-300% power

60% of the group don't get a new experience.
So they start over with new campaigns once the campaign arc ends

this,
if you hope to get to level 20, you better start your campaign at level 11+.

 

[Reynard]

this,
if you hope to get to level 20, you better start your campaign at level 11+.

There's nothing wrong with that. I I were to put out a "High Level Handbook" I would definitely talk about how to start campaigns at different tiers. There are ways to think about those characters differently than "been adventuring a while." There are ways to build backgrounds and histories for both individual characters and the group as a whole that anchors them in the world.

 

[Upper_Krust]

As an option, that would be cool. But not everyone want's to play fantasy simcity. Some people still want to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And they want to do it at grand scale. Domain management fundamentally changes game play unless it's something that is done via few rolls between sessions. They are interested in personal power growth and how much cool stuff they can do personally.

I agree. Which is why in my subsequent post I stated you still have to have those 'munchkin +10 swords": you still need the crazy epic monsters, ridiculous weapons and artifacts, higher dimensions to explore, insanely epic spells. That's where the fun lies.

Not everyone wants to run their own religion or build their own divine realm. I have those options and I would advocate you do, because it makes the events more personal. But there is nothing wrong with just wanting to have epic anime style massive collateral damage battles against planet-sized monsters...and take their stuff. I have that catered for too.

 

[Upper_Krust]

See notes about Superman and Wonder Woman - when what you can do becomes more central to play than why you choose to do it, there are media other than RPGs that are apt to handle it better.

Why can't RPGs have it too?

Responsibilities aren't character. Adding more tactical concerns does not counter my point.

Making decisions, choosing to do the right (or wrong) thing IS character.

I submit that those would be better served with their own entire games, rather than something bolted on the side of a small-group tactics and action-adventure game like D&D. Especially when the story that personal power of violence naturally leads to power over the people of a nation is... fraught.

Keep on the Borderlands says otherwise.

Nobody said is was impossible.
The thread asks a question - Why do higher levels get less play? Among the answers may be that writing compelling content that calls for an RPG at that power level is hard. That it isn't impossible doesn't change that it is hard, and doing much of the same thing is pretty easy at lower levels.

I don't think it is harder, but it is more niche. So its not RPG material to write if you want to make money and appeal to a wider audience.

Fortunately I am passionate and crazy enough about Epic/Immortal Tier content that other issues don't bother me.

As has been noted by many a viewer of long-running programs, while one might assume that even greater risk makes a story more emotionally resonant, it often doesn't. The game of having to one-up your own stakes to hold interest is where "jumping the shark" comes from, after all.

I agree, but its only a factor when you run out of content - which admittedly with Core D&D is pretty soon when you hit the Epic Tier.

But you have probably already told that story several times over at lower levels - Lois or the innocent bystander? Lois or the innocent bystander orphan child? Lois or the entire Daily Planet building? Lois or the city? Lois or the country? Lois or the world? Lois or the Universe?

Again true, but it doesn't have to be Lois and the 'x', Superman stories can be about exploration of the universe, philosophical decisions that shape reality.

But the difference is Superman has the option to save both an innocent bystander AND the universe. Level 12 characters cannot do the latter.

It is... kind of repetitive,

No more or less so than other stories.

and after a couple of iterations doesn't reveal anything new about Superman, as it isn't a fundamentally new question, especially when Superman never seems to fail to save both anyway.

He's the definitive Aspirational Superhero, you read such characters to be uplifted, look to them as role models (especially for the impressionable).

That's what I mean by it reducing to a tactical exercise. We already know what Superman will choose - the only question is how he manages it this time.

He will choose the heroic option, that's what heroes do.

 

[Upper_Krust]

because I am not the least bit interested in things the higher levels make possible.

...and best of luck to you. I guess you can't please all the people all the time.

Some people are interested though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Another question might be, why would anyone want to play D&D level 20 trying to be a god, when they could pay Nobilis?

Likely because its 100% fluff, 0% crunch and borderline unplayable.

...nice book though.

Why expand the D&D framework to handle phenomenal cosmic power, instead of using a framework that has that power as part of the base design considerations?

Well D&D since Deities & Demigods* has always been happy to encroach into the realms of the immortals. That's where I cut my teeth.

My method of implementing Divine Ranks flows seamlessly after 20th level.

*Or even earlier counting the Demigods & Heroes book.

The answer to that question is apt to inform the question the OP poses.

Well, firstly you might want to Ascend your existing character.
You might want to juxtapose the elements of a D&D campaign with immortals.

Why build a wholly new house when you can just build an extension?