D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

I think you misunderstand me. If he has supernatural power, then...no actually he doesnt have limits.

If hes just a man, but with gear, he has limits. He, him, the actual man.

With supernatural power? Hes no different from any other class, just a different "totally not magic" source of power.

Now you know why I don't like even calling it "supernatural", but am willing to do so if that's the compromise required to get it.

I call it "transmundane" because the limits really are there. And yet, somehow, in ways inexplicable to we mortals including the Fighter himself, those limits that really are there...are somehow exceeded. They never trained in any way that wasn't mundane, other than facing off against powerful threats. They never practiced any kind of magic. They never said any mumbo-jumbo, they never got any special divine boon, they never found some hidden wellspring of power that revealed that what they thought were limits were never really limits at all.

The limits are there. And then...they exceed those limits anyway.

That's specifically what it means to be transmundane. To have limits, and yet become so superlatively skilled at mundane acts, they somehow, inexplicably, push past those limits. Not infinitely far--as I've explicitly said, there are some things that are just straight-up magic, like conjuring objects truly out of thin air. Not even necessarily all that far at all. That's how you know the limits are still there. But somehow, some way, by something ineffable and beautiful about mortal grit and determination, they stand in defiance of that Demon Lord and tell her, "Is that all you got?"

 

[Scribe]

I call it "transmundane" because the limits really are there. And yet, somehow, in ways inexplicable to we mortals including the Fighter himself, those limits that really are there...are somehow exceeded.

I think this line, is so undefinable that...thats why we are missing eachother on this. If its beyond normal, and the Fighter, without magical items, fully mundane, is doing the fantastical, then....its not mundane. It just isnt. At that point call the source whatever you want, its NOT mundane, at which point the trope is lost.

The moment you have this wellspring of SOMETHING beyond will, that trope is lost.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think this line, is so undefinable that...thats why we are missing eachother on this. If its beyond normal, and the Fighter, without magical items, fully mundane, is doing the fantastical, then....its not mundane. It just isnt. At that point call the source whatever you want, its NOT mundane, at which point the trope is lost.

The moment you have this wellspring of SOMETHING beyond will, that trope is lost.

There is no wellspring. It just happens. That's the point. That's what makes it Martial. It isn't drawing on anything. No amount of investigation will ever reveal any "power source". To every reasonable observer, nothing beyond-mundane should have happened, and yet, objectively, it did.

That's what makes martial characters so special. They have absolutely no right to be doing what they're doing...and yet they do. Because their skill, their grit, their determination, is just That Bloody Good.

You keep saying, more or less, "If something that isn't mundane has happened, it ABSOLUTELY HAD to come from some power source. Always."

Martials say, "Nah." That's literally what being a badass, heroic martial is all about. Proving that very claim false.

 

[Hussar]

Is ranged area damage something that Fighters struggle with that needs to be addressed? I thought Fighters were pretty OK when it came to combat performance relative to mages, right?

Cuz the thing I'm hearing is that the martial/caster divide is more about the high-level wahoo stuff that casters can do while Fighters are stuck being merely damage engines. Which problem actually needs solving?

No, not really. It was just an example where fighter types just are simply not allowed to do things that casters can do routinely. By 9th level (IIRC) when rangers got volley, the wizard can drop 3 or 4 fireballs per day. IOW, it's more or less at will.

I was simply pointing out that even giving fighter types limited effects that are weaker versions of spells is simply not allowed in the game.

I love your ideas of using gear as the explanation. Certainly as the baseline. And, once it's in place, it's trivially easy to reskin it as a number of other sources. But, again, we lost this argument years ago. It will simply never, ever happen. Because the second this comes up, it will get shouted down. There is just no way that this will ever be allowed in the game.

 

[Scribe]

There is no wellspring. It just happens. That's the point. That's what makes it Martial. It isn't drawing on anything. No amount of investigation will ever reveal any "power source". To every reasonable observer, nothing beyond-mundane should have happened, and yet, objectively, it did.

That's what makes martial characters so special. They have absolutely no right to be doing what they're doing...and yet they do. Because their skill, their grit, their determination, is just That Bloody Good.

You keep saying, more or less, "If something that isn't mundane has happened, it ABSOLUTELY HAD to come from some power source. Always."

Martials say, "Nah." That's literally what being a badass, heroic martial is all about. Proving that very claim false.

And thats where its all just a bridge too far. The examples of Beowulf swimming for days in full plate, and holding his breath for hours after. That cannot be done by 'just will man, I'm just that hard'. It cannot. Therefore, its not mundane.

To call it mundane, because thats just how badass Beowulf is, is where we jump the shark.

Either way, I'm taking the rest of the night to work on my Shadowdark stuff. We can disagree here and thats ok.

Peace.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It cannot.

Why not?

Stories we've told for thousands upon thousands of years have done it.

Stories as recent as Conan and Charles Atlas have done it.

It's been part of myth and legend and folklore and fairy-tale ever since there were such things at all.

Why is this impossible, if it's literally part of what has made fiction exist for literally at least three thousand years? (The youngest date of first writing for the Epic of Gilgamesh is ~1200 BC.)

 

[Micah Sweet]

Now you know why I don't like even calling it "supernatural", but am willing to do so if that's the compromise required to get it.

I call it "transmundane" because the limits really are there. And yet, somehow, in ways inexplicable to we mortals including the Fighter himself, those limits that really are there...are somehow exceeded. They never trained in any way that wasn't mundane, other than facing off against powerful threats. They never practiced any kind of magic. They never said any mumbo-jumbo, they never got any special divine boon, they never found some hidden wellspring of power that revealed that what they thought were limits were never really limits at all.

The limits are there. And then...they exceed those limits anyway.

That's specifically what it means to be transmundane. To have limits, and yet become so superlatively skilled at mundane acts, they somehow, inexplicably, push past those limits. Not infinitely far--as I've explicitly said, there are some things that are just straight-up magic, like conjuring objects truly out of thin air. Not even necessarily all that far at all. That's how you know the limits are still there. But somehow, some way, by something ineffable and beautiful about mortal grit and determination, they stand in defiance of that Demon Lord and tell her, "Is that all you got?"

If you exceed limits...then they aren't limits. What you are talking about makes no sense to me, beyond the action movie compromise I've already made.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why not?

Stories we've told for thousands upon thousands of years have done it.

Stories as recent as Conan and Charles Atlas have done it.

It's been part of myth and legend and folklore and fairy-tale ever since there were such things at all.

Why is this impossible, if it's literally part of what has made fiction exist for literally at least three thousand years? (The youngest date of first writing for the Epic of Gilgamesh is ~1200 BC.)

All of those examples are supernatural. Not mundane.

 

[Hussar]

Why not?

Stories we've told for thousands upon thousands of years have done it.

Stories as recent as Conan and Charles Atlas have done it.

It's been part of myth and legend and folklore and fairy-tale ever since there were such things at all.

Why is this impossible, if it's literally part of what has made fiction exist for literally at least three thousand years? (The youngest date of first writing for the Epic of Gilgamesh is ~1200 BC.)

You know the answer to this.

It’s impossible because you are not allowed to change DnD. And DnD means casters can do things that martials can’t. Full stop. This isn’t a mystery. The fandom will never, ever allow the changes you want. High level play will always be a pipe dream because there are far too many out there that Connor accept that DnD needs to change to make high level play viable.

We lost this argument. We lost it years ago and you can keep shaking your fist at the darkness but at the end of the day, you will never get anywhere.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

All of those examples are supernatural. Not mundane.

So. Just so we're clear.

Conan is a supernatural character.