D&D (2024) Is a heavy armored monk feasible?

[mellored]

any person I played with who tried to argue that they couldn't use the bonus unarmed strike because of armor, but they do get two unarmed strikes when they spend an FP ...

Thematically, sure.

even though flurry uses identical wording

They aren't. You skipped a sentence for the first one.


But in conclusion, Heavy Armored Monk is feasible at lower levels, but gets kind of weak as you go up.


So... it needs a subclass.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Exactly, you can't do the first one, you can do the second.

Like I said, people really do have interesting readings!

So, to be clear ... you know the following ...

1. You cannot use a bonus action for an unarmed strike. Right?

2. At level one, monks gain the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action if they aren't wearing armor. Just pointing out- this is how monks (unlike anyone else) is allowed unarmed strikes with a bonus action.

3. So ... if they wear armor, they lose the ability "to make an unarmed strike as a Bonus action." Can't do it. It's not a question of numbers, it's the ability to make unarmed strikes. Because that's the ability that grants it.

4. Nevertheless, later on, when they are allowed to spend a focus point to get two unarmed strikes (one more than they originally had) for their bonus action, they can ignore all of that.


sigh Cool cool. Sure, Like I said, have fun with it. Clearly, I don't know much about reading rules.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The monk would be much, much better. They already are, in most situations, and that’s without heavy armour. Now you have a tank who can basically negate one hit per round and impose disadvantage at will with a high AC.

Yeah monks in D&D, I think if the issue is you want the aesthetic of an armored warrior (I can think of a bunch of martial arts movies where characters are in armor)….just let them wear with at no penalty but no bonus either: make it purely aesthetic.

 

[ECMO3]

But in conclusion, Heavy Armored Monk is feasible at lower levels, but gets kind of weak as you go up.

I think it stays pretty feasible, but you want some specific choices. It won't be high damage, but it is high mobility and with Fighter you can make it more survivable and "tough" than probably any other non-caster multiclass combination.

Far more survivable if you allow the 2014 subclasses (i.e. Long Death).

I mean think about this at 15th level with the right feats. fighter, Defense, Dwarf, Tough Feat S20, D14, C12, W16, 140hp, proficiency in all saves, Evasion, Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master

You have AC of 21 (not including magic), you can pretty much grapple and prone an enemy at will with 3 attempts to fail 2 saves, and hit another with a SAP weapon or alternatively take dodge as a bonus action at will giving everyone disadvantage against you

A typical attack action against 2 enemies goes like this:

Hit someone with your Longsword, then use your shield to knock him prone
Extra attack with someone else with your longsword (making his first attack at disadvantage), sheath sword
Flury of blows:
Grapple the prone guy
Attack the not prone guy, if you hit 5 force damage and try to stunning strike
One more Flurry of blows if you miss on the attack or the prone guy makes his save against either the shield bash or the grapple.
This is 2 ki used, which at this level means you can do this essentially at will.

Guy on the ground is now attacking with disadvantage because he can't get up. If he made three out of four saves he can get up but he is still attacking with disadvantage on his first attack due to SAP.

Guy not on the ground can't attack if he is stunned. If he made the save on stunning strike his first attack is at disadvatage.

The first attack that gets through (probably with disadvantage) has damage reduced by 22 .... and another 5 if it is BPS. Any other BPS attacks that get through lose 5 damage as well.

If you are fighting a huge bad guy you can't grapple you can still prone him with a shield bash, attack again with advantage using your attack action, potentially switching to a Monk weapon to try stunning strike, and then use dodge as a bonus action.

Playing a Long Death: any time a guy near you dies you gain 18 temp hps and in the extremely unlikely case that someone actually drains your 140 hps you use a ki and stay at 1 .... even if you are incapacitated.

 

[mellored]

I think it stays pretty feasible, but you want some specific choices. It won't be high damage, but it is high mobility and with Fighter you can make it more survivable and "tough" than probably any other non-caster multiclass combination.

Not as tough as a straight monk with the same choices.
Your AC falls behind, Deflect Attacks is behind, initiative is behind, dex saves fall behind, your movement is behind, and your damage is way behind.

At lower levels you have maybe +1 AC and some extra HP from second wind. So yea, you're a bit tougher. But you loose too many other scaling things.

 

[ECMO3]

Like I said, people really do have interesting readings!

So, to be clear ... you know the following ...

1. You cannot use a bonus action for an unarmed strike. Right?

Yes you can as long as it is flurry of blows. What you can't do is the "Bonus unarmed attack" associated with martial arts.

2. At level one, monks gain the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action if they aren't wearing armor. Just pointing out- this is how monks (unlike anyone else) is allowed unarmed strikes with a bonus action.

Thefeature is actually Martial Arts and you can not use it if you are in armor.

3. So ... if they wear armor, they lose the ability "to make an unarmed strike as a Bonus action." Can't do it. It's not a question of numbers, it's the ability to make unarmed strikes. Because that's the ability that grants it.

They don't lose "the ability to make an unarmed strike as a Bonus action" They lose the Martial arts feature, including the associated "Bonus Action Unarmed strike"

Monk Focus is not this feature and Flurry of Blows is not the Bonus action unarmed strike. This is clear in the rules.

Losing one bonus action feature does not make you lose another different feature. Similarly, if this Monk takes the speedy feat his speed increases by 10 even though his speed does not increase from Unarmored Movement. Two different features, both increase speed, one works in armor one doesn't.

 

[ECMO3]

Not as tough as a straight monk with the same choices.

I think the weapon mastery and abilities you get from a multiclass make it hold up pretty effectively at most levels, including high level.

For example I think a Fighter 1/Monk 15 coming in with Defense, 3 weapon masteries, Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master and almost all the Monk features will be more durable than the same Monk at 16th level. He has a better AC (21 vs 20 without magic) has better control options, better damage reduction.

What the straight Monk does better is damage and movement, but I don't think it is more durable at most high levels.

The exception is level 20 and maybe level 19. Getting +4 to both Dex and Wisdom do put the single class clearly ahead at 20th level, and having an epic feat at 19th level might put him ahead there as well. In terms of durability, I think it is behind at almost every other level though.

Your AC falls behind

If you're optimized your AC is ahead until 20th level.

Deflect Attacks is behind

But damage reduction is well ahead with Heavy Armor Master and there is no comparable feat for a Monk that will give you that sort of passive defense that stacks with deflect attacks.

At lower levels you have maybe +1 AC and some extra HP from second wind.

Here is your AC tree assuming a Fighter with defense and a shield:

level 1: 16 vs 19 (Chain and Shield)
Level 4: 17 vs 20 (Splint and Shield)
Level 8: 18 vs 21 (Plate and Shield)
Level 12: 19 vs 21
Level 16: 20 vs 21
Level 20: 25 vs 21

So yea, you're a bit tougher. But you loose too many other scaling things.

Like I said you lose damage and mobility, not much else with a 1-level fighter dip.

 

[mellored]

For example I think a Fighter 1/Monk 15 coming in with Defense, 3 weapon masteries, Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master and almost all the Monk features will be more durable than the same Monk at 16th level. He has a better AC (21 vs 20 without magic) has better control options, better damage reduction.

Defense is nice, but you can't use a shield + grapple + deal any damage. Pick 2.

And I don't see the point of Shield Master. You already have a bonus action to knock prone or push, and evasion.

But damage reduction is well ahead with Heavy Armor Master and there is no comparable feat for a Monk that will give you that sort of passive defense that stacks with deflect attacks.

You're -1 from monk levels, and -3 from Dex.

Meaning your +2 at the highest level, and -4 with deflect energy.

Your also behind all the other features. Evasion a level later.

level 1: 16 vs 19 (Chain and Shield)
Level 4: 17 vs 20 (Splint and Shield)
Level 8: 18 vs 21 (Plate and Shield)
Level 12: 19 vs 21
Level 16: 20 vs 21
Level 20: 25 vs 21

Like I said, viable at lower levels. Higher AC (shield) is a trade off for lower damage and control. But falls off.

Most games don't make it past level 12 though, so it should work for many.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Like I said, people really do have interesting readings!

So, to be clear ... you know the following ...

1. You cannot use a bonus action for an unarmed strike. Right?

2. At level one, monks gain the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action if they aren't wearing armor. Just pointing out- this is how monks (unlike anyone else) is allowed unarmed strikes with a bonus action.

3. So ... if they wear armor, they lose the ability "to make an unarmed strike as a Bonus action." Can't do it. It's not a question of numbers, it's the ability to make unarmed strikes. Because that's the ability that grants it.

4. Nevertheless, later on, when they are allowed to spend a focus point to get two unarmed strikes (one more than they originally had) for their bonus action, they can ignore all of that.


sigh Cool cool. Sure, Like I said, have fun with it. Clearly, I don't know much about reading rules.

Despite substantial functional overlap, the monk's Bonus Unarmed Strike and Flurry of Blows are two entirely separate abilities. There is no reason to assume that the armor restrictions on Bonus Unarmed Strike apply to Flurry of Blows or any other monk ability that doesn't also specifically forbid armor.

If Flurry of Blows had been described as an upgrade to Bonus Unarmed Strike it would have been different, but it isn't.

 

[ECMO3]

Defense is nice, but you can't use a shield + grapple + deal any damage. Pick 2.

Why? You can sheath your weapon as part of an attack giving you a free hand to grapple.

The only thing this really prevents is making a weapon attack with a reaction.

On future rounds where you start out grappling, you let go of the prone guy, pull out a weapon do your thing, sheath your weapon, FOB an unarmed strike to try to land a stunning strike, then use the other two flurrys to grapple the prone guy again (or grapple and if he fails the first save head butt him at advantage for 6 force damage).

And I don't see the point of Shield Master. You already have a bonus action to knock prone or push, and evasion.

You can knock prone without a bonus action and the extra point in Wisdom or Dexterity is not going to do anything for you. If you like another feat better go for it.

It is an extra chance to prone someone.

You're -1 from monk levels, and -3 from Dex.

Meaning your +2 at the highest level, and -4 with deflect energy.

Your also behind all the other features. Evasion a level later.

This depends on level and the number of hits you take with BPS, but you also have a +1 in AC all the way through 19th level (more than that at lower levels), and that along with the fact the BPS reduction works on multiple hits more than makes up for this IMO.