D&D (2024) Anyone else dislike the "keyword" style language of 5.24?

[Kurotowa]

I think Keywords help in many areas, but it's too easy to fall into the Overused Condition.

I think the heavy use of Poisoned and Charmed is brilliant. How do you define what "mental control effects" are for the purposes of resistance or immunity? You piggyback them all on the Charmed condition and point the defensive traits at that. Clear, effective, no room for rules debate.

Now, maybe as the edition matures we'll see some of the conditions get overused. But right now, I think them being condensed for simplicity and clarity is a good thing.

 

[Arilyn]

I can't stand the writing in 5.24. It's one of the reasons I'm not switching. It is that grating. The writing style is not making the game any clearer by forcing the reader through a whole book of passive language, as well as innumerable uses of the words conditions and actions. I don't see how "you have the Blinded Condition" is any more legible than "you are Blinded."

What is this trying to solve? I don't recall any players complaining that they were confused in 5e over conditions and actions. If the writers wanted to make sure, they could have just let us know that formal keywords are capitalized, rather than the constant stream of passive language, like "you may make a Utilize Object Action to tie a knot in a String." How about, "It takes an Action to tie a knot."

I wouldn't adopt WotC's style in your writing @Puddles. I'm seeing You Tubers use this language when discussing 5.24 and I wish they'd stop.

 

[Shardstone]

As a college professor, my experience tells me that you have to handhold people to the nth degree, thus 5R and its use of keyterms is necessary and good.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Conversely all the keyword language in the world still hasn’t helped anyone understand how Hiding works in 5.5.

well, in any circumstance there's always those who end up being beyond helping.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I am so happy with the reduction of "natural language" in Revised 5E. It drove me crazy whenever a DM would ask what a player's spell did and I'd have to sit through a recitation of the flavor text and an overly wordy description. That is perhaps my least favorite thing about 5E 2014.

For example, compare 2014 Antipathy/Sympathy:

This spell attracts or repels creatures of your choice. You target something within range, either a Huge or smaller object or creature or an area that is no larger than a 200-foot cube. Then specify a kind of intelligent creature, such as red dragons, goblins, or vampires. You invest the target with an aura that either attracts or repels the specified creatures for the duration. Choose antipathy or sympathy as the aura's effect.

Antipathy. The enchantment causes creatures of the kind you designated to feel an intense urge to leave the area and avoid the target. When such a creature can see the target or comes within 60 feet of it, the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened. The creature remains frigh⁠tened while it can see the target or is within 60 feet of it. While frig⁠htened by the target, the creature must use its movement to move to the nearest safe spot from which it can't see the target. If the creature moves more than 60 feet from the target and can't see it, the creature is no longer fright⁠ened, but the creature becomes fright⁠ened again if it regains sight of the target or moves within 60 feet of it.

Sympathy. The enchantment causes the specified creatures to feel an intense urge to approach the target while within 60 feet of it or able to see it. When such a creature can see the target or comes within 60 feet of it, the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or use its movement on each of its turns to enter the area or move within reach of the target. When the creature has done so, it can't willingly move away from the target. If the target damages or otherwise harms an affected creature, the affected creature can make a Wisdom saving throw to end the effect, as described below.

Ending the Effect. If an affected creature ends its turn while not within 60 feet of the target or able to see it, the creature makes a Wisdom saving throw. ON a successful save, the creature is no longer affected by the target and recognizes the feeling of repugnance or attraction as magical. In addition, a creature affected by the spells is allowed another Wisdom saving throw every 24 hours while the spell persists.

A creature that successfully saves against this effect is immune to it for 1 minute, after which time it can be affected again.

With 2024 Antipathy/Sympathy:

As you cast the spell, choose whether it creates antipathy or sympathy, and target one creature or object that is Huge or smaller. Then specify a kind of creature, such as red dragons, goblins, or vampires. A creature of the chosen kind makes a Wisdom saving throw when it comes within 120 feet of the target. Your choice of antipathy or sympathy determines what happens to a creature when it fails that save:

Antipathy. The creature has the Frightened condition. The Frightened creature must use its movement on its turns to get as far away as possible from the target, moving by the safest route.

Sympathy. The creature has the Charmed condition. The Charmed creature must use its movement on its turns to get as close as possible to the target, moving by the safest route. If the creature is within 5 feet of the target, the creature can’t willingly move away. If the target damages the Charmed creature, that creature can make a Wisdom saving throw to end the effect, as described below.

Ending the Effect. If the Frightened or Charmed creature ends its turn more than 120 feet away from the target, the creature makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the creature is no longer affected by the target. A creature that successfully saves against this effect is immune to it for 1 minute, after which it can be affected again.

 

[Zaukrie]

I don't understand why they felt the need to add those words. If you are blinded, you are blinded. How hard is this? SO MANY EXTRA WORDS. Strong dislike. Very strong. Don't get me started on the stat blocks and all the extra stuff in there....

 

[MothMayI]

It says something of the design philosophy of 2024 5e that the most successful edition of 5e ever made use of natural language...but the designers feel the need to rewrite everything to be keyword-based.

Keywords don't make rules easier to follow, especially for a complex game like a TTRPG. Bring thorough is what makes rules legible and applicable. If anything, natural language makes rules more inclined to be written in a coherent fashion, since you only need to think about the face value of what words mean rather than the mechanical definition you're giving them. Conversely, Capitalized Terms give the impression of more complex rules behind them, which can make things more difficult to understand especially for new players. A "melee weapon" is self-explanatory, but what is a "Melee weapon"? What significance, if any, does the term "Melee" have?

If anything, 2024 5e is a confusing mess because it was rewritten sloppily to revolve around keywords without thoroughly editing the end result. According to the keyword definitions 2024 5e uses, improvised weapons can never actually be used as weapons—they aren't "weapons" in the sense that they appear in the Simple or Martial weapon categories, and thus anything that lets you make an attack with a "weapon" is incompatible with improvised weapons. Most monsters can't use their attacks as opportunity attacks because they don't fit the definitions of "melee weapon" or "Unarmed Strike".

The irony is that the designers would have been far better off taking the language they were already using and giving those terms definitions players could reference. Get rid of the confusion regarding "melee/ranged weapon attack" vs. "attack with a melee/ranged weapon", for instance. Instead, the end result is confusing and contradictory, with errors they really should have been aware of before it went to printing.

 

[darjr]

I don’t like it.

 

[Shardstone]

It says something of the design philosophy of 2024 5e that the most successful edition of 5e ever made use of natural language...but the designers feel the need to rewrite everything to be keyword-based.

Keywords don't make rules easier to follow, especially for a complex game like a TTRPG. Bring thorough is what makes rules legible and applicable. If anything, natural language makes rules more inclined to be written in a coherent fashion, since you only need to think about the face value of what words mean rather than the mechanical definition you're giving them. Conversely, Capitalized Terms give the impression of more complex rules behind them, which can make things more difficult to understand especially for new players. A "melee weapon" is self-explanatory, but what is a "Melee weapon"? What significance, if any, does the term "Melee" have?

If anything, 2024 5e is a confusing mess because it was rewritten sloppily to revolve around keywords without thoroughly editing the end result. According to the keyword definitions 2024 5e uses, improvised weapons can never actually be used as weapons—they aren't "weapons" in the sense that they appear in the Simple or Martial weapon categories, and thus anything that lets you make an attack with a "weapon" is incompatible with improvised weapons. Most monsters can't use their attacks as opportunity attacks because they don't fit the definitions of "melee weapon" or "Unarmed Strike".

The irony is that the designers would have been far better off taking the language they were already using and giving those terms definitions players could reference. Get rid of the confusion regarding "melee/ranged weapon attack" vs. "attack with a melee/ranged weapon", for instance. Instead, the end result is confusing and contradictory, with errors they really should have been aware of before it went to printing.

This logic is weak because as far as we know, 2024 has sold better than 2014. Ofc it hasn't been 10 years so who can say, but ???

And to pretend like 2014 wasn't written sloppily from the jump with melee attack, melee weapon attack, attack with a melee weapon all exist in 2014 and all mean slightly different things.

 

[Gorck]

I don’t like it.

Correction, you don’t Like it. Now go look up Like in the Rules Glossary.