D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

I think it's because OSR games are considered to be competing with Xth Edition, and are therefore the enemy of all who favor Xth Edition.

Edition wars have never been about "fixing" anything; it's always been about digging in and defending a beloved favorite against all other options.
Well, at least in my case--as I fully recognize I'm what some once called a "4venger"--a goodly portion of what I say on the topic comes from having to fend off claims that in many cases are simply, outright false. Biggest single issue (among several big ones, mind) is the folks who insist that 4e demanded perfect lockstep encounter design in order to be "balanced"....even though the DMG1 explicitly says not to do that, in at least two, IIRC three, different places.
 

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But, you have to understand, WotC tried to do exactly that with 4e and got crucified for it. One of the biggest criticisms of 4e was that it pushed a specific playstyle too hard. After the spanking that WotC took over 4e, there is zero chance that they will make that mistake again. The fandom has spoken loud and clear - they WANT these half baked vestigial rules. Tamper with them at your peril.
I do understand that ... I think that A) WotC wasn't clear enough about their goals (though 3.5 started the trend and birthed a negative reaction as well) and B) the fan base shouldn't have crucified for it. C) WotC should have rebranded 4E as "D&D tactics" and keep the line going.
 

Complaining about that to people who are not WotC does little to help that, though.

I can understand wanting to vent your frustrations, but doing so at people who don't share your personal preferences, and who have no clear power to change matters if they wanted to, isn't what we'd call constructively engaging.
If you think anything I've said in particular is not constructive then I welcome that feedback. I think if people are complaining just to complain then sure. But if they're asking like, 'how can I make my 5e games feel more like this other system that is hard to recruit for', not as much.
How is that different from « WotC must cater to how I play the game »?
I don't get how you see these as being equivalent? Maybe I can rephrase. What I mean is that, as someone who doesn't love 5e, the 5e mechanics are still a big part of my gaming life because of how prevalent it is. I don't think they have to change, obviously. But that's why it is worth my time to discuss where and how I think 5e goes wrong, even as someone who is not the biggest fan of the system. Does that clarify it?
 

I have a ton of 3.5 books if anyone wants them!
I'll take 'em! I mean, I may have most of them, but there's a few holes in my 3.5 collection that I'm retroactively trying to fill.
But it's what the people I play with currently want, so I must go where the gaming is. If I had my druthers, we'd be playing 4e, Pathfinder 1e, 3.5, or hell, Earthdawn! But instead, it looks like we'll be switching to Tales of the Valiant. What can you do?
You can offer to run your own game. Make it a one-shot or mini-campaign, so they'll be more likely to give it a try without feeling like they have to invest more than a few weeks to indulge you. Then run the best game that you can so that they want it to keep going, or to do it again. Keep trying if it doesn't stick, with a different system or a different campaign approach until it does stick. Make sure you know what your group likes and give them more of it than they're getting with their current 5e game.
I wish we lived in a world that, when someone asked me what game I'm playing, I could say "D&D" and not have to clarify which version I'm talking about! But a lot of different factors led us to this point. If, like me, you have to accept it or not find play, I feel for you, but we lack the power to turn the ship now.
Ironically, I say that I'm playing D&D when in reality I don't mean D&D at all. I say D&D the same way I say Kleenex when I really mean Wal-mart brand facial tissue.

Not that I'm playing Wal-mart brand fantasy roleplaying. But you get my drift, I'm sure.
Even if we vote with our wallets and protest loudly, it might not happen. We don't have the same broken base as there was with the 4e split. There isn't a lone competitor threatening to take the lion's share of profits in the Fantasy TTRPG space- not yet, at least. The Balkanization of TTRPG's will continue, but D&D will continue to exert a pull, like gravity, on both the market and pop culture.

For now. We don't have to like it, but I think we all have to come to peace with it.
I agree. If you don't like it, it's the best it's ever been for you. D&D's pull is weaker than it's ever been, and more and more people are splintering off into other brands for various reasons. (And I'm not the only one to think so). That's only likely to become more so as WotC seems to be operating with a strategy that's a few years out of date on many vectors. But ultimately, it doesn't matter what's going on in "the community" or "the market." The only games that really matter are the ones that you're in. Take control of your own destiny and make them the best that you can for you.
 

maybe the issue is that people want slight changes to 5e, not a 1e, and you just assume that is what they want?

At least for me 1e is not any closer to what I want than 5e is. There is no way I go back to 1e. 5e with some tweaks however… it’s just that 2024 moved in the wrong direction relative to what I am looking for
Who said 1e? Certainly not me.

Good grief, how many 5e D&D versions are there right now? Level Up, Tales of the Valiant, Pathfinder... the list is endless.

If you honestly cannot find a version of D&D that suits you, that's on you.
 

I think it comes down to the fact the OSR itself narrowed down what they mean by OS to basically 1977 - 1983 B/X and 1e with Gygaxian dungeons and sandbox play. The vast majority of material keeps to that area and there is little beyond that. There is exactly one 2e retroclone and it's widely panned. No one is producing settings like Ravenloft or Forgotten Realms, just Greyhawk clones. Story-based narrative play is shunned, and Hickman's revolution is seen rather negatively.

Basically, a lot of it is people attempting to reinvent the wheel in the same space using different types of rubber. I will admit I am not as keyed into the movement as I was a while back (the wilderness years for me between 3.5 and 5e), so IF someone is making 2e adjacent clones with gothic horror settings, I probably missed it. But OSR just seems to focus on one section of OS play at the exemption of all others, so I can see why it doesn't get recognition you are describing. It's either your vibe or it does nothing for you.
There is a lot of horror material in the OSR world. Is it all gothic horror? Not exactly (but things can go gothic if you want.) 2E is tricky because some OSR games SUPPORT it with optional rules.
 

There is a lot of horror material in the OSR world. Is it all gothic horror? Not exactly (but things can go gothic if you want.) 2E is tricky because some OSR games SUPPORT it with optional rules.
That kinda sounds like what a lot of the OS players complained about in the first place: D&D not supporting their preferences except in general terms. It's a bone thrown to other styles, but clearly not an important part of the community.

My point was if I say my old school idea was running Keep on the Borderlands using Moldvay, I have a plethora of competing options all catering to me. If my memory was Night of the Walking Dead using 2e, my pickings are a few slim scraps.
 

That kinda sounds like what a lot of the OS players complained about in the first place: D&D not supporting their preferences except in general terms. It's a bone thrown to other styles, but clearly not an important part of the community.

My point was if I say my old school idea was running Keep on the Borderlands using Moldvay, I have a plethora of competing options all catering to me. If my memory was Night of the Walking Dead using 2e, my pickings are a few slim scraps.
You do understand that there is no way to publish 2E Ravenloft material. The only way to publish Ravenloft material is with 5e in the Dungeon Masters Guild. If you find Gothic Horror roleplaying material " a bone thrown" and a "few slim scraps" towards Ravenloft fans, well.....
 

Now if 5E had done what some of the early design discussions suggested and had create a sort of bare bones d20 system with setting and play style creating additions - I think that would have been amazing. One could have had a warbands/tactical skirmish system set in Spelljammer land with space crews battling each other, a heroic wilderness game on Arathas, a Greyhawk high lethality dungeon crawl to demesne game system and a Forgotten Realms fantasy heroes light tactics game... rather then simply the last promising to deliver all the others if one just imagined hard enough.
To be fair, there are a lot of systems that do exactly that, except without the D&D branded stuff, of course. GURPS. BRP. Savage Worlds. FATE. None of them are anywhere near as popular as D&D, but yeah; I mean, it exists. Arguably, D&D did that too (how well is subject to debate) during the third edition era when it had two SRDs, the "regular" one and the Modern one, and all kinds of add-ons were meant to make "D&D" do all kinds of things. This was especially true when the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana book was released, which explicitly was around changing mechanics and playstyle into various models.
I think it comes down to the fact the OSR itself narrowed down what they mean by OS to basically 1977 - 1983 B/X and 1e with Gygaxian dungeons and sandbox play. The vast majority of material keeps to that area and there is little beyond that. There is exactly one 2e retroclone and it's widely panned. No one is producing settings like Ravenloft or Forgotten Realms, just Greyhawk clones. Story-based narrative play is shunned, and Hickman's revolution is seen rather negatively.
Depends on what you call the OSR. The "original" OSR died years ago when all of the games had retro-clones available for them. The next wave of the OSR, which just adds more modules, more options, and stuff like that died years ago (although years later) probably around the time Google+ died. The current "OSR" has changed the term into being more of a playstyle than a ruleset, or even a family of loosely related rulesets. All kinds of games that have little or no compatibility with pre-3e D&D but which still claim to be "OSR" because they champion the OSR playstyle to a greater or lesser degree are the darlings of the movement these days.

That said, you don't need to hang out on r/osr and argue about the merits or OSR bona fides of Black Hack, Mork Borg, or Into the Odd to make use of all of the work that's been done in the nearly twenty years or so since OSRIC was released. What exactly are you wanting from the OSR? New settings like in 2e? They're out there. I agree; that's not really the focus of the OSR, but there are some. You want something like trad-style adventure paths or mega-adventures that aren't just hex-crawls or megadungeons? There are some, even though, as you say, that's not as much the focus. But they're there. That's the beauty of a movement that's fairly diverse and has been around for a long time. There's all kinds of things available in it. Regardless of what the trends of discussion might be, there's someone else doing something else in it too.
 

That kinda sounds like what a lot of the OS players complained about in the first place: D&D not supporting their preferences except in general terms. It's a bone thrown to other styles, but clearly not an important part of the community.

My point was if I say my old school idea was running Keep on the Borderlands using Moldvay, I have a plethora of competing options all catering to me. If my memory was Night of the Walking Dead using 2e, my pickings are a few slim scraps.
I would say 5e does a pretty good job of emulating 2e style play. There isn’t really any need for a 2e retroclone.
 

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