I am surprised I am still excited for Daggerheart

[Kichwas]

There has been a request not to release "spoilers" to people who received the book early. They have said not to do unboxing videos and such. It was discussed on the Daggerheart reddit.

I suspect this has more to do with not making this meme from the daggerheart reddit turn into some serious feelings of frustration:

The more the Aussies talk about their new toy, the darker it's going to get for the rest of us in that room up there.

 

[Kichwas]

I pretty much agree Daggerheart is really not a D&D adjacent game. It is very different. I think people who just want a "D&D done right" game won't be happy with it.

And I don't know anything much about DC20 but have some friends who've met the author and described him as a super nice and motivated guy ... who hasn't played almost anything but D&D. So I suspect you're likely to be right about that game as well, but there is a big following for it, so who knows?

This.

Daggerheart captures 'adventure fantasy' in a very different way than D&D, Pathfinder, Fantasy Hero, or GURPS Magic.
- "Rules light" or "narrative games" in past seem to also often want to be in 'experimental genres'. Daggerheart is just right there in the 'meet in a tavern and go adventuring' space. But it does it in a unique way.

For people that felt like other 'light' or narrative games felt too much like a 'Shatner doing poetry over lattes in a Beatnik cafe where everyone has a turtlneck on'... Daggerheart isn't that. It's approachable.

DC20 feels like "if you hate WotC now, but still want to play D&D, buy this." But that space is crowded and largely 'owned' by Paizo. And Paizo's Pathfinder actually plays like a different game and since second edition hasn't just been 'D&D with the serial numbers scratched off'.

If you want an alternative game to play when in a different mood, but still in the same 'adventure fantasy' space - that's Daggerheart, not DC20.

So I see a future for Daggerheart, presuming the publisher promotes it well. But I see an insurmountable hurdled for DC20. Pathfinde ronly succeeded because it took 10+ years for people to realize D&D 4E was a good game (though some, like me, still feel it's not D&D, but it is a good game). People who like D&D still like D&D 5E, even if they hate the publisher - so they don't have enough reason to put all their books into storage or a book donation box.

 

[zedturtle]

I don't know where Daggerheart will land on a lot of things because Darrington is being rather quiet on plans.

"Back in my day" we opened the redbox of D&D up and made characters with original names like 'Thorin' and 'Bilbo' ( ) and just rolled dice and told stories in our head in the land of 'some kid's imagination'.

I still like my themepark game, but I also want some sandbox time.

I'm really looking forward to Daggerheart because it feels like a chance to get players at a table without a lot of preconceived notions in play. "Hey folks, you're in the inn, there's stuff and things around you, and something is going on outside, you over there - what do you see and what do you do?"

Give me back the feeling that my imagination matters.

Of course, only the lucky folks down under know for absolute sure, but DP has been fairly clear about Campaign Frameworks being included in the core rules. A Campaign Framework (from what we saw in the beta) is a very top-level setting sketch, some rules tweaks to support the intended mood of the game, an inciting incident to maybe use to start the campaign, suggested Session Zero questions, and (in the final release) a map designed for the GM and players to label during that Session Zero.

So, to me, it seems like Daggerheart is very much leaning on the GM and Players' imaginations, much more than other publishers. But I can also see them producing modules that could slot into a particular Campaign Framework with only minor tweaks from GMs (as long as the GM didn't wholesale change up all of the setting sketch material).

 

[Kichwas]

A Campaign Framework (from what we saw in the beta) is a very top-level setting sketch.

So, to me, it seems like Daggerheart is very much leaning on the GM and Players' imaginations, much more than other publishers. But I can also see them producing modules that could slot into a particular Campaign Framework with only minor tweaks from GMs (as long as the GM didn't wholesale change up all of the setting sketch material).

Here's the authors of the game themselves on how they view 'homebrew' and players making the setting for themselves - should start a bit past 21 minutes in:
(Had this on hand as I just posted this to the Daggerheart reddit in one of the threads there on using it for a modern game.)

'RAW' - take a map, have the players fill it in, and go.
22:42 - The GM can just ask the players to fill in any gap.

That's literally been a houserule at my tables since the 90s that players have almost never taken advantage of. But when they have, those are the things I still tell stories about.
I'm hoping Daggerheart will give me the ability to get players that are willing to.

24:46 - But those comments in general to me form how to make a 'homebrew' setting for this. Start extremely bare and use guided questions to ask your players what's going on.

Really this whole video should be put on a link in a GM guide for Daggerheart.

Caveat: this is the video that got me to pre-order, so yeah. I've got my bias for it.

PS: They don't answer the question about whether or not Critical Role will switch to Daggerheart. Daggerheart fans want them to, but there are other fans adamant that CR needs to be about D&D. The decision either way will split their fandom. If they opt to not use Daggerheart it will feel like a vote of no confidence in their own RPG and that could kill Daggerheart as a viable new game. That would be the moment it becomes a heartbreaker. But if they switch to it, then it will likely become one of the bigger names in the hobby.

 

[Aldarc]

DC20 feels like "if you hate WotC now, but still want to play D&D, buy this." But that space is crowded and largely 'owned' by Paizo. And Paizo's Pathfinder actually plays like a different game and since second edition hasn't just been 'D&D with the serial numbers scratched off'.

IMHO, DC20 feels like Billy May reinventing and selling you his version of the "wheel" without being aware of other similar/identical wheels that exist on the market. SteveC's description of Dungeon Coach is pretty apt:

a super nice and motivated guy ... who hasn't played almost anything but D&D.

And even then, it's almost entirely just 5e D&D with a smattering passing knowledge of PF2.

And every time he has some new update, he always presents it like a salesman on an infomercial as the greatest thing since sliced bread that solves all problems... until the next time he gives an update when the new version is presented as the greatest thing since sliced bread that has solves all problems, and so on.

So my general feeling towards Dungeon Coach (and his DC20 project) tends to be "you dear sweet Summer Child."

 

[aramis erak]

Again, why are people suggesting that Daggerheart will have no support?

I'm not. I'm just saying having support of various kinds is essential to success.

 

[overgeeked]

IMHO, DC20 feels like Billy May reinventing and selling you his version of the "wheel" without being aware of other similar/identical wheels that exist on the market. SteveC's description of Dungeon Coach is pretty apt:

And even then, it's almost entirely just 5e D&D with a smattering passing knowledge of PF2.

And every time he has some new update, he always presents it like a salesman on an infomercial as the greatest thing since sliced bread that solves all problems... until the next time he gives an update when the new version is presented as the greatest thing since sliced bread that has solves all problems, and so on.

So my general feeling towards Dungeon Coach (and his DC20 project) tends to be "you dear sweet Summer Child."

To be fair, that’s what most D&D 5E 3PP are doing. Repackaging older editions of D&D content as the next great new thing and selling it to gamers who don’t know any better.

 

[Aldarc]

To be fair, that’s what most D&D 5E 3PP are doing. Repackaging older editions of D&D content as the next great new thing and selling it to gamers who don’t know any better.

It really depends. For example, Gavin Norman was basically just "Here I cleaned up B/X and made 1e D&D compatible with B/X. Enjoy." But he's not selling it as a panacea. I don't even think that Kelsey Dionne was selling Shadowdark "as the next great new thing." I think that she is incredibly self-aware of past editions of D&D and other OSR games.

 

[Reynard]

I'm not. I'm just saying having support of various kinds is essential to success.

It's not though. Look at Blades in the Dark: successful and influential for years without support.

 

[Reynard]

IMHO, DC20 feels like Billy May reinventing and selling you his version of the "wheel" without being aware of other similar/identical wheels that exist on the market. SteveC's description of Dungeon Coach is pretty apt:

And even then, it's almost entirely just 5e D&D with a smattering passing knowledge of PF2.

And every time he has some new update, he always presents it like a salesman on an infomercial as the greatest thing since sliced bread that solves all problems... until the next time he gives an update when the new version is presented as the greatest thing since sliced bread that has solves all problems, and so on.

So my general feeling towards Dungeon Coach (and his DC20 project) tends to be "you dear sweet Summer Child."

I'm not a huge fan of what I have seen of DC20 either, but I think we should remember that a small but dedicated fanbase can be a great recipe for success.