What do YOU plan on doing with Daggerheart?

[Reynard]

I don't think horror would require much fighting tbh. Rolls with fear alone and taking away PC armour cause a lot of panic.

I still think charactrs are too competent for horror. Horror vibes like Buffy or whatever? Sure.

And Urban Fantasy isn't that different from cinematic fantasy.

I did not take it as "Urban Fantasy" since the world "real" was used twice. But yes, you probably would not need to change much to run Dresden style urban fantasy.

 

[Reynard]

This was my thoughts too.

Also, let's not discount Stress....


Why is gumshoe an issue? What in gumshoe is not compatible with rolling with consequences and spending hope to do things?

But why not just use gumshoe? Why try and figure out how to tack on Gumshoe's skill mechanics to Daggerheart, when you can just play Gumshoe?

 

[Campbell]

But why not just use gumshoe? Why try and figure out how to tack on Gumshoe's skill mechanics to Daggerheart, when you can just play Gumshoe?

@RenleyRenfield is welcome to correct me, but I'm fairly sure he meant gumshoe with a little g. Not the Gumshoe system.

 

[Reynard]

@RenleyRenfield is welcome to correct me, but I'm fairly sure he meant gumshoe with a little g. Not the Gumshoe system.

Ah. My mistake, then. I can't recall the last time I saw/heard someone refer to mysteries that way outside of the RPG system.

I don't actually think whodunnit's work particularly well for RPGs, mostly because GMs are usually pretty bad at laying down clues well.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

@RenleyRenfield is welcome to correct me, but I'm fairly sure he meant gumshoe with a little g. Not the Gumshoe system.

this is correct. Not the exact copy pasta of a other game. Just plot or style or tropes.

A lot of a game is setting. So even if you just choose humans, even with magic the game could be a lot of social, mystery, and roleplay.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think horror would require much fighting tbh. Rolls with fear alone and taking away PC armour cause a lot of panic. And Urban Fantasy isn't that different from cinematic fantasy.

You can't just "take away PC armour" unless you're willing to re-write and rebalance the mechanics fairly significantly.

Otherwise you're making it so the PCs will take a ton more HP damage, particularly the ones with low Evasion (a pretty serious balance change). And Guardian will stop working correctly as a class, you'd need to redesign that too (as will various abilities for other classes).

So yeah that would be pretty big "fighting the system", I'd suggest!

You can make it dark-as-night without fighting the system - c.f. Age of Umbra for example - you could easily do World of Darkness-style or Buffy-style horror (just make it so all PCs are effectively wearing a gambeson or something unless wearing "serious" armour). I think it would be pretty good for a lot of urban fantasy, and modern guns would be fairly easy to add in especially with the "fiction first" principle to cover "he's just dead" situations.

I think I could fairly easily run a mystery scenario in Daggerheart.

I mean, you could, but you'd just be rolling Duality dice a lot and I imagine most Hope would be being spent on Assist another. If there's little/no combat it'll definitely function, but most of the classes are designed on the assumption there will be a fair bit.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You can't just "take away PC armour" unless you're willing to re-write and rebalance the mechanics fairly significantly.

You absolutely can for a scene or two. The rules are even right there. It's a Red Wedding level threat. You're not fighting the system at all - you're just using parts of it that aren't often touched to make a really scary interlude. Or more accurately a nerve-wracking interlude where the PCs don't have to just leave weapons but armour at the door to the ball/the audience with the big guy. Knowing your damage thresholds for the next scene are Diddly/Squat adds a vast amount of tension and nerves in what is often the right place.

And Guardian will stop working correctly as a class, you'd need to redesign that too (as will various abilities for other classes).

Guardian's class feature, of course, is Unstoppable and that's incredibly useful here. I don't think this is a problem. Meanwhile yes the move that costs three hope doesn't work, but you have plenty to spend hope on.

I mean, you could, but you'd just be rolling Duality dice a lot and I imagine most Hope would be being spent on Assist another. If there's little/no combat it'll definitely function, but most of the classes are designed on the assumption there will be a fair bit.

Which makes it better than mainline D&D where one of the classes is literally called the Fighter and the skills are trumped by spells. People run mysteries in that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

interlude

Yeah that pretty much sums it up doesn't it.

It's a think you could temporarily do as an exceptional situation.

You could not continuously run DH that way without massive rules-fighting.

Guardian's class feature, of course, is Unstoppable and that's incredibly useful here. I don't think this is a problem. Meanwhile yes the move that costs three hope doesn't work, but you have plenty to spend hope on.

That's literally fighting the rules if you're running the game without armour to make it "horror". There's no way around it.

It would make Bare Bones insanely, hilariously useful.

Which makes it better than mainline D&D where one of the classes is literally called the Fighter and the skills are trumped by spells. People run mysteries in that.

Better than D&D at mysteries! Next you'll be saying you managed to outrun a 2-year-old!

I mean, this is a pretty funny test to apply given the vast majority of "role-played mysteries" in the world don't actually any stats or RPG rules at all. Sure, you don't even need rule to run a mystery, but like, do the rules make it more entertaining? Are they useful? The issue isn't "IT CANT BE DONE!!!", it's "Why though?".

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah that pretty much sums it up doesn't it.

It's a think you could temporarily do as an exceptional situation.

You could not continuously run DH that way without massive rules-fighting.

I'd need some basic hacking for a continual situation.

That's literally fighting the rules if you're running the game without armour to make it "horror". There's no way around it.

Using the rules that the game presents you with in ways that are entirely in line with the intent of the rules for a result that takes minimal effort and is significantly better than handwaving is the literal opposite of fighting the rules.

And no I don't need to run the game without armour. I however do plan to include some scenarios without armour or with serious penalties for wearing armour for serious tension.

It would make Bare Bones insanely, hilariously useful.

Indeed. If this was an always thing Bare Bones would need a ban or nerf.

I mean, this is a pretty funny test to apply given the vast majority of "role-played mysteries" in the world don't actually any stats or RPG rules at all. Sure, you don't even need rule to run a mystery, but like, do the rules make it more entertaining? Are they useful? The issue isn't "IT CANT BE DONE!!!", it's "Why though?".

Because variety is the spice of life. Would Daggerheart be what I'd use for a mystery campaign? No. Is it something I'd have to turn away from if it came up as part of a campaign? Also no. Would Daggerheart make things notably worse? Probably not.

 

[SteveC]

I think you very much could run horror in Daggerheart. The Stress system is right out there on the table to start things off. What I would do is start of by causing Stress to the character attempting an action any time they succeed with Fear, and to the entire group whenever they failed.

And then, since I own the boardgame Mansions of Madness, I'd open up the Sanity cards and offer reduction in Stress if the card was greater than the Sanity value, but have the card take effect if it was less than or equal to it. I'd probably have to do some work on the actual mechanics, but if you want a game where characters can go crazy, well there you are.

That's a build-out of the game, and I'm sure people can say, "Well, why not play a horror themed game if that's what you want?" And I'll answer the same way I do whenever anyone wants to add to a game: if you like the core of a game, why not use it and bolt on the extra? If you don't like the mechanics or a horror or investigative or ... fill in the blank game, why not play what you like, and add the elements you don't have to taste? As my friend Egg says in Big Trouble in Little China: take what you want, and leave the rest.

There seems to be a discussion of taking armor or weapons away as being necessary for horror. I haven't seen much of that discussion due to, I assume, being on ignore for some of the participants. I'd say that you definitely can have armor and weapons and still have horror. As Newt most famously said in Aliens, "It won't make any difference."

There are tons of good resources out there for running horror games and I'd recommend looking in that direction. As an old person, Gurps Horror is a fantastic resource. The key elements of horror are a loss of the feeling of control, the unknown, slowly building tension, and mental/body horror. And since I'm just writing this pretty casually, I'm sure that I'm missing out on that. The key is that I'm saying you can put people into scary situations by removing their assumptions.