Star Wars Rewatch

[Bedrockgames]

We already know that the Skywalker kids would have been protagonists in Lucas' sequels as he had written the outlines already.

And Star Wars is a family saga so it makes sense to have it follow descendants

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My memory is him trying to kill Kylo in a flashback scene in TLJ. I don’t remember it coming up in TFA but possible I am forgetful

Me also re: forgetful - I need to rewatch all the SW movies sometime, but I'm waiting to get an un-Lucas'd version of the OT first.

I think the actual flashback must be in TLJ, but I was under the impression that in TFA we heard the story - maybe not though?

Yea he was conflicted and ultimately didn’t do it but the point is it doesn’t make that much sense his character would do that (both because killing a family member seems completely out of character and because of his faith in people to choose good). And Kylo was his own student

Personally I just read it as him realizing the conflict that Jedi teachings created (i.e. to have no attachments and just "do the correct thing", which in the case of someone hopelessly lost to the Dark Side would be the chop), possibly and/or being tricked by the Dark Side into temporarily forgetting his real attitude here.

 

[The Firebird]

And the plot of the prequels doesn't?! Some of the things the Jedi say in the prequels don't? This seems like a double-standard to me.

I don't think so. I've explained already why I find it different; Lucas makes his statements into universals, while Johnson keeps them specific.

Can you explain how you believe the audience is being "scolded"? I think the vast majority of the audience already agrees.

At a certain point you feel it or you don't. You can believe other people when they say they feel that way, or not. Up to you.

Imo, "the vast majority of the audience already agrees" reflects an attitude that can come across poorly...even if the audience agrees. It's the sense of certitude more than the claim itself.

And how are these two antagonistic to "Star Wars fans", rather than "the audience" (which is entirely different thing)? Because that was the claim - "to fans".

Do these points need to be made to Star Wars fans, in particular?

And let's be clear, you called it "canon", but it's not - it's headcanon - because canon-wise, it's never been entirely clear why that wouldn't work from actual canon sources. You said you had no knowledge of the EU, but the only sources which contradicted this are old EU sources.

Thinking through the logic of the OT or PT makes it seem contradictory.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Can you explain how you believe the audience is being "scolded"? I think the vast majority of the audience already agrees.

And how are these two antagonistic to "Star Wars fans", rather than "the audience" (which is entirely different thing)? Because that was the claim - "to fans".

Aren’t all Star Wars fans super-rich arms dealers?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

At a certain point you feel it or you don't. You can believe other people when they say they feel that way, or not. Up to you.

Imo, "the vast majority of the audience already agrees" reflects an attitude that can come across poorly...even if the audience agrees. It's the sense of certitude more than the claim itself.

LOL I'm certain because I'm extremely familiar with polling on attitudes to arms-dealing/trading!

The vast majority of the public in virtually every Western country, even the US, very sharply disapproves of selling weapons to basically any external country/empire/etc. Like, countries making weapons for themselves? People in the country doing it usually think that's absolutely fine. Cooperating on defence? People start to get a bit more uncertain, but it's kind of okay. But selling (rather than giving) weapons to countries/people which couldn't otherwise access them, for a profit? The vast, overwhelming majority of people, cutting across any supposed political divides, disapproves very thoroughly!

I don't think it's much difference from disapproving of slavery or child labour or the like. It certainly polls quite similarly.

And the SW movies absolutely expect us to see those things as bad (and quite a lot of other things, too!).

Do these points need to be made to Star Wars fans, in particular?

???

I mean, no, and they're not being made to "SW fans in particular". Thinking that they are seems to be seeking offense, to me. The idea that Rian Johnson think people viewing SW movies are uniquely sexist or pro-arms-dealing seems obviously laughable to me. Like Lucas basically quoting Bush in RotS, Johnson is just putting stuff in that he cares about.

Thinking through the logic of the OT or PT makes it seem contradictory.

This remains illustrative of my point, and you did say "canon", which suggests more than logic being an issue (plus the movie attempted to frame it in a way that it wouldn't necessarily be generally applicable).

Honestly people being mad about this reminds me of people being mad about Darth Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, and other "lightsaber crimes" over the years, all of which people moved past in the end (just as they have with "The Holdo Manuever")

I'm not saying it doesn't raise points of discussion for nerds, but the idea that that's "antagonistic to fans" seems impossible to support.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And the plot of the prequels doesn't?! Some of the things the Jedi say in the prequels don't? This seems like a double-standard to me.

The prequels are flawed too. There are lines in them that stand out like sharp tacks. Maybe they could have been performed better in some cases and retained that Lucas charm, but I think Lucas was overly self indulgent in the prequels.

I found Johnson had this quality by a factor of 100. The whole Kylo Ren speak during the fight with Rey felt like Johnson talking directly to the audience. It was just way too meta for my taste in Star Wars (in some movies I can see it working, but here it it didn't feel very natural).

 

[The Firebird]

Thinking that they are seems to be seeking offense, to me. The idea that Rian Johnson think people viewing SW movies are uniquely sexist or pro-arms-dealing seems obviously laughable to me. Like Lucas basically quoting Bush in RotS, Johnson is just putting stuff in that he cares about.

Putting in stuff he cares about can be done with more or less skill.

Honestly people being mad about this reminds me of people being mad about Darth Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, and other "lightsaber crimes" over the years, all of which people moved past in the end (just as they have with "The Holdo Manuever")

It would be nice if they could. Frankly the Holdo Manuever, more so than anything else, is the moment I lost interest in Star Wars. Maybe that sounds ridiculous to you. Maybe I just aged out of it and was looking for a scapegoat. Maybe.

I'm not saying it doesn't raise points of discussion for nerds, but the idea that that's "antagonistic to fans" seems impossible to support.

I'm glad you don't feel that way. Ultimately we are talking about feelings here. You can decide that the way I feel is invalid, or that it's all manufactured outrage, or that I'm just looking for things to get upset about. Like I said. At a certain point you feel it or you don't.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The whole Kylo Ren speak during the fight with Rey felt like Johnson talking directly to the audience.

Kylo Ren doesn't fight Rey in TLJ though does he - only in TFA and TRoS I thought?

Or do you mean when they fight side by side vs. the Praetorian Guard-type guys? In which case, wow, I didn't notice that at all.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Me also re: forgetful - I need to rewatch all the SW movies sometime, but I'm waiting to get an un-Lucas'd version of the OT first.

Yeah, it has been a little bit for me so I could be wrong on some scenes. Also my opinions on stuff changes with time I find. That is why I am very careful in how I frame my dislike of what TLJ did (again it isn't that it is a bad movie, and many of the things the Johnson did with Abram's material, which I have complained about, Abrams did with Johnson's material in the next film. Again there is clearly a romantic storyline with Rose and Finn, and it frankly just not good writing to pair him up with a random new character in the next movie, rather than build on the emotional arc they created in TLJ.

I think the actual flashback must be in TLJ, but I was under the impression that in TFA we heard the story - maybe not though?

I would honestly have to watch TFA again to remember exactly. But my recollection is they indicate something went south with Kylo and that had something to do with Luke being MIA. I don't recall if there were more implications beyond that.

Personally I just read it as him realizing the conflict that Jedi teachings created (i.e. to have no attachments and just "do the correct thing", which in the case of someone hopelessly lost to the Dark Side would be the chop), possibly and/or being tricked by the Dark Side into temporarily forgetting his real attitude here.

I get that this is what the Jedi Order might have done in the Prequels. But I just don't see Luke, as he was trained by Ben and Yoda going here. At the very least, it is a tall order that requires a lot more work than they put into it. They really have to do some heavy lifting to convince an audience that the guy who persisted in his belief in the goodness of Darth Vader is going to try to murder his nephew in the middle of the night because he sensed the darkside in him. Not only is it insulting to an audience who have justification for believing in Luke's goodness and optimism, it drags down the family connection there. Like this is the kind of Uncle behavior you expect from Junior Soprano not Luke Skywalker

 

[Bedrockgames]

Kylo Ren doesn't fight Rey in TLJ though does he - only in TFA and TRoS I thought?

Or do you mean when they fight side by side vs. the Praetorian Guard-type guys? In which case, wow, I didn't notice that at all.

I meant that scene. I had some memory of them having some kind of conflict. Possible I am wrong. But beyond that, just the way he says things about killing the past if you have to. It feels like it is speaking to the audience. It doesn't feel like something Kylo would have said in that moment

That said, I thought teh scene had a lot of potential. If they had joined together, I would have been fully onboard with TLJ. That would have been some emotional payoff. And maybe that is what Johnson wanted to do, I don't know( always possible they stepped in and said no). But that is the kind of moment where they could have easily left it hanging so you are waiting to see what happens in the next film the same way you were super eager to see what happens after Empire. But the way it ended, I had zero excitement for the next installment (and I think it is a fair expectation that the middle movie in a trilogy make you want to come back for the third in that way)