D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[pemerton]

Heh, considering I've adapted the Ironsworn exploration rules for D&D, I'd say that it is very possible.

I've just been looking at the Ironsworn journey rules. It's an interesting way to do a "skill challenge"-type structure.

Are these the rules you adapted for D&D?

 

[Hussar]

I've just been looking at the Ironsworn journey rules. It's an interesting way to do a "skill challenge"-type structure.

Are these the rules you adapted for D&D?

Yup. They wlork great.

 

[pemerton]

Yup. They wlork great.

For anyone following along, here's the core of the system:

for each segment of your journey, roll +wits. If you are setting off from a community with which you share a bond, add +1 to your initial roll.

On a strong hit, you reach a waypoint. If the waypoint is unknown to you, envision it (Ask the Oracle if unsure). Then, choose one.

• You make good use of your resources: Mark progress.
• You move at speed: Mark progress and take +1 momentum, but suffer -1 supply.​

On a weak hit, you reach a waypoint and mark progress, but suffer -1 supply.

On a miss, you are waylaid by a perilous event. Pay the Price.​

Depending on the difficulty of the journey, a segment can be from one to twelve ticks. Every four full ticks is one progress (the maximum is ten progress). When the group is ready, and the fiction seems to make sense for it, the players can try this:

When your journey comes to an end, roll the challenge dice and compare to your progress. Momentum is ignored on this roll.

On a strong hit, the situation at your destination favors you. Choose one.

• Make another move now (not a progress move), and add +1.
• Take +1 momentum.​

On a weak hit, you arrive but face an unforeseen hazard or complication. Envision what you find (Ask the Oracle if unsure).

On a miss, you have gone hopelessly astray, your objective is lost to you, or you were misled about your destination. If your journey continues, clear all but one filled progress, and raise the journey’s rank by one (if not already epic).​

@Hussar, in D&D how do you resolve the for each segment of a journey move?

 

[CellarHeroes]

Y’know how much material I needed to play 400 hours of sandbox in Ironsworn? A page. One page. And here’s a dirty secret. That page was AI generated because I was having a bit of trouble thinking of a good start point.

So no. I don’t need a “stack of modules” to run a sandbox. It can be done that way, sure. But it’s not needed. What is needed is a system that facilitates sandbox play without the need of stacks of modules, online generators and a three hundred page setting bible.

I totally get it...those things aren't needed at all. My only issue with your statement was that you were limiting their use to just one four-hour session. Heck, I was a submariner in the Navy, and all we had were 1e PHB, DMG, MM, and some dice.

I'm not about to say that any system is better than any other for sandbox play, because that's how we (my groups) usually played. The exceptions were if a cool boxed set or module came out for whatever system we were familiar with. I think it solely depends on the GM. I have been in a couple of games (Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG, for instance) that I thought "This ain't gonna work", and it totally worked. Thanks to a talented GM.

There are just certain types of games that aren't a good fit for some GMs. If you ask me to run one of those 5e hardback adventures, you in for a very boring and frustrating ride. I can't wrap my head around them for some reason.

 

[AnotherGuy]

But, yeah, as @pemerton has said, there's no monster stat blocks. Monsters never attack. You take damage when you fail to hit. You choose what kind of damage you take that makes sense in the context of the situation. The amount of damage you take depends on the "level" of the monster, but, by and large, monsters don't actually have any stats. Even the level of the monster is largely determined by the situation, rather than any individual stat block.

When you're playing PbtA games, improvisation is required. And it's not the DM improv'ing. It's the entire group. Virtually every element that is added to the game is done so by the players. So, it's entirely possible that, say, while traveling from A to B, a failed roll spawns an entire side plot - such as happened in my game where a failed roll resulted in a monster attacking, which spawned hunting the monster and tracking it back to its lair, all the while creating from scratch what the monster was, how it lived, a good chunk of its ecology and whatnot. I'd say about 1/3 of the ideas came from me and 2/3rds from the players.

It's a very different experience from running something like D&D. Honestly, I found the whole thing just so liberating. But, I'm a massively drooling Ironsworn fanbois, so, I'm not even remotely objective about this.

Fanbois away, I love that idea that full detailed monster stat blocks are not needed and it can easily be worked out on the intended difficulty of the encounter / level of the monster.
Also, the idea of taking damage when you fail to hit (and the monster doesn't attack via die roll) reminds me very much of those old Lone Wolf gamebooks where you as a player do all the legwork without needing to roll separately for character and monster as per D&D.

Out of interest does Ironsworn have complex monsters such as incorporeal creatures, dragons (variety of attacks), a medusa that petrifies?

 

[AnotherGuy]

@pemerton how does one utilise momentum?
Can/does it assist against a Clock?

 

[mamba]

Ironsworn uses a completely different action resolution system from D&D. It doesn't use stat blocks in the same way.

which means what, there are no fights the way D&D has them, they are more like skill challenges or something? You can come up with stat blocks on the fly? You do not need traps or a little bit of a story behind the goblin cave to make it more than a sequence of random combat encounters (or whatever the equivalent is in Ironsworn)?

 

[SkidAce]

Oh, definitely.

...after all, if the players want to go to a place you haven't prepped for, you can always say "sounds good, let's call it here for the night so I can flesh it out."

"But we just sat down?"

Hehe.

 

[The Firebird]

Probably someone has mentioned but the rules for Ironsworn are free. I've not played the game but when I did PbtA I had a similar experience to Hussar for a time...like, "wow, it's so easy to run games, so easy to improvise this system, I can get so much done".

That faded after a while because the lack of fixed content and challenges started to bother me. It felt less and less like a game and more like a storytelling aid. A bit too much anything goes.

After that phase I entered my "lots of structure is good, fixed worlds are good" era, where I am now.

 

[Faolyn]

How did they pick their first quest? What rumours? Rumours of adventure locations that the DM hasn't created yet? How did they travel to the location that doesn't exist yet? How did they know where it was? How did the DM know how long it would take to get there? So many questions.

And note, without the DM having anything outside the town prepped, what could the players actually do? It's not like they can say, "Hey, I want to check out X" when nothing outside the town has been detailed yet.

I'd LOVE to see you be able to "just in time" create using D&D. That would be very impressive.

I can't tell if you're being serious here or not. Because shockingly, you don't need to prep an area to have rumors about it. GMs have imagination, you know. We can come up with ideas without having to come up with stats, and we can come up with stats on the fly.

And we can create rumors and then prep the area based on what, if any, rumors the PCs decided to follow up on.

And of course the players can check out things that haven't been detailed, because they can come up with ideas on the fly as well. Presumably the PCs have their own goals and interests, even if nothing else in the world has been fleshed out.

In last Friday's game, the bard's player wanted to know if anyone was putting on a performance. The GM said "sure" and to the best of my knowledge, came up with the performance on the fly--they certainly weren't part of the scene until the player asked about it. (Either that or they had a "random performers" encounter prepped out and ready to use at a moment's notice, which is another thing you keep forgetting the GM can do). In either case, the performers weren't a planned encounter. The player wanted to do something that was important to his character and the GM was able to instantly respond.

Wow, that sounds like the most boring adventure I've seen. A couple of stat blocks for six encounters? Maybe a pet? No NPC's, no prisoners, nothing? Sure, if we're going to make the most basic, prosaic, boring adventures possible, then sure. No worries.

You're the one who came up with the Simple Dungeon Of Six Encounters, not me.

And to be frank, I am not going to put in a lot of effort to come up with an example for you. I have an actual game to prep for.

It's funny. The first scenario in Lost Mines of Phandelver has 8 encounters. The Cragmaw hideout. Now, this is for 1st level characters (note, I notice you immediately chose the simplest, LOWEST level adventure you could to illustrate how easy it was. Let's see you try that with a 9th level party, but, I digress).

Sure. Instead of low-level goblins, it's giants, or a outpost of a powerful bandit group.
It's a group of uncaring spellcasters using the area to create powerful, reality-warping spells that's been having a spill-over effect into the surrounding countryside. Can the PCs stop the spellcasters? Can they find a way to restore the countryside?
It's where the princess and her retinue of guards has run away to so she can gather forces to fight against her father, the king, who has become warmongering in his old age, while the king thinks she's been kidnapped and hires the PCs to get her back. Will the PCs realize the truth in time? Will they join with the princess or with the king?
It's where dwarfs or kobolds or some other mining folk have accidentally uncovered an ancient portal to another plane, and now weird/eldritch/evil beings are coming through. Can the PCs find a way to close the portal... or will they go through it?
It's where two armies are gathering to clash, uncaring that their battle may destroy a village in the middle of town. Can the PCs protect the village or try to convince the generals to end their battle?

All for the simplest 1st level adventure. Still, twice as many stat blocks as you were using. And a heck of a lot more interesting adventure than a handful of goblins guarding a pie.

What pie?

You have a bad habit of strawmanning. First you take the idea that some people like to have some depth to the world and spin this into "people can't play without a 300-page setting guide," and now you took what was a simple exercise in creating six encounters into "this is boring and it's about goblins guarding a pie."