D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[pemerton]

@pemerton how does one utilise momentum?
Can/does it assist against a Clock?

I don't know Ironsworn very well. I think momentum is for modifying rolls - after the event, I think.

which means what, there are no fights the way D&D has them, they are more like skill challenges or something? You can come up with stat blocks on the fly? You do not need traps or a little bit of a story behind the goblin cave to make it more than a sequence of random combat encounters (or whatever the equivalent is in Ironsworn)?

You can download it for free and read it: DriveThruRPG

The basics of combat are similar to the journeying moves I posted above, except instead of travelling to waypoints and expending supplies, characters deal harm and suffer it.

There are also initiative rules. And the fundamental rules for consequences on a miss are similar to Dungeon World. (Ironsworn calls it paying the price.)

Out of interest does Ironsworn have complex monsters such as incorporeal creatures, dragons (variety of attacks), a medusa that petrifies?

There is a heavy reliance on fictional positioning. See eg the discussion on p 208:

A leviathan is an ancient sea beast (page 154). It’s tough to kill because of its epic rank, and it inflicts epic harm, but it doesn’t have any other mechanical characteristics. If we look to the fiction of the leviathan’s, description, we see “flesh as tough as iron.” But, rolling a Strike against a leviathan is the same as against a common thug. In either case, it’s your action die, plus your stat and adds compared to the challenge dice. Your chances to score a strong hit, weak hit, or miss are the same.

So how do you give the leviathan its due as a terrifying, seemingly invulnerable foe? You do it through the fiction.

If you have sworn a vow to defeat a leviathan, are you armed with a suitable weapon? Punching it won’t work. Even a deadly weapon such as a spear would barely get its attention. Perhaps you undertook a quest to find the Abyssal Harpoon, an artifact from the Old World, carved from the bones of a long-dead sea god. This mythic weapon gives you the fictional framing you need to confront the monster, and finding it can count as a milestone on your vow to destroy this beast.

Even with your weapon at the ready, can you overcome your fears as you stand on the prow of your boat, the water surging beneath you, the gaping maw of the beast just below the surface? Face Danger with +heart to find out.

The outcome of your move will incorporate the leviathan’s devastating power. Did you score a miss? The beast smashes your boat to kindling. It tries to drag you into the depths. Want to Face Danger by swimming away? You can’t outswim a leviathan. You’ll have to try something else.

Remember the concepts behind fictional framing. Your readiness and the nature of your challenge may force you to overcome greater dangers and make additional moves. Once you’ve rolled the dice, your fictional framing provides context for the outcome of those moves.​

 

[Faolyn]

Well, if I was doing D&D? I'd have a setting bible with lots of stuff. I'd do the prep work.

Now though? Yeah, I'd likely lean into something like Ironsworn (although, to be fair, that's a fairly narrow genre and not as broad as D&D - I'd have to hunt for another game if I wanted something as encompassing as D&D) where you'd start with a village. Player makes a Move - Gathering Information, for example. On a strong success, I'd make something up that leads them on an adventure. If I had no idea, I'd turn to the rest of the players and ask for options. Or, possibly, Ironsworn does come with an Ask the Oracle mechanic that allows for some random inspiration.

In an earlier response to Mamba, you said:

How did they pick their first quest? What rumours? Rumours of adventure locations that the DM hasn't created yet? How did they travel to the location that doesn't exist yet? How did they know where it was? How did the DM know how long it would take to get there? So many questions.

The only real question is "in consideration of what you literally just said to Kromanjon, what makes you think adventure generation in Ironsworn works significantly differently than D&D?"

Seriously. You start with wherever the PCs are--we'll say a village. Same as in Ironsworn The players ask around for rumors, either random rumors or rumors related to their own goals and interests. They make a roll, using a d20 instead of however many d6s Ironsworn uses. Success gives them information that the GM would use to lead them on an adventure.

The simplest Ask the Oracle is Yes/No questions. So, in one episode where we did pretty much exactly this, I framed the question - "Is this a supernatural event?" (No) "Is there a mystery?" (Yes). "Is it a murder mystery?" (No) "Missing person?" (Yes)

So how is playing yes/no more interesting than a D&D GM coming up with ideas on their own or using a generator of some sort? Or flipping a coin?

In Ironsworn, when you undertake a quest, you swear an Iron Vow (resolving those vows is how you gain XP to advance your character). So, the players swear - which can fail btw, resulting in more complications. Play progresses from there.

Sure. And the same thing can happen in any other system. I mean, you're aware that in most games, you get XP for accomplishing goals. Same is true in D&D for those of us who use milestone/story-based progression.

Note, the players could make multiple Gather Knowledge checks and spawn multiple events. As the players progress through a vow, checks can also spawn more complications. So on and so forth.

Same thing in D&D.

By the end of the scenario, we could discover (and I'm making this up, this is hypothetical) that the missing child is the illegitimate child of the leader of the town and was taken into the woods Hansel and Gretal style to be eaten by a witch. At the outset of the task, literally no one at the table knows anything. It is all revealed during play.

So why is this superior than the GM coming up with a plot before hand?

If your only thing is that it's faster, that's one thing. But that's also simply a matter of taste. In this case, you need to learn how to say "I prefer this system because it is faster," not "this system is better because it is faster."

Basically, an entire couple of sessions of play could easily be generated by a couple of die rolls and some leading questions. Totally sandbox, total player freedom.

Same thing in D&D.

The only true difference is that, if I needed the stats for the witch, I would either have to make them up or pull out one of my monster books and grab stats from there.

 

[Lanefan]

Oh, come on. That frankengame that you play is barely 1ed, let alone D&D.

Our system is still mechanically closer to 1e than are either of 3e or 5e (4e is even further out) and is still very recognizably D&D.

 

[Faolyn]

which means what, there are no fights the way D&D has them, they are more like skill challenges or something? You can come up with stat blocks on the fly? You do not need traps or a little bit of a story behind the goblin cave to make it more than a sequence of random combat encounters (or whatever the equivalent is in Ironsworn)?

Not too long ago, we were missing a player so the rest of us decided to try, for the first time, Lasers & Feelings. Specifically the Magical Pets hack. I rolled on the random generator for the adventure (which was something like "moon plants have gone missing because of enchanted constructs, which will cause the parent/teach festival to fail") and by the time the session was over, I had invented the basics of an entire world and the reason the constructs were doing this thing.

 

[darkbard]

In an earlier response to Mamba, you said:

The only real question is "in consideration of what you literally just said to Kromanjon, what makes you think adventure generation in Ironsworn works significantly differently than D&D?"

Seriously. You start with wherever the PCs are--we'll say a village. Same as in Ironsworn The players ask around for rumors, either random rumors or rumors related to their own goals and interests. They make a roll, using a d20 instead of however many d6s Ironsworn uses. Success gives them information that the GM would use to lead them on an adventure.


So how is playing yes/no more interesting than a D&D GM coming up with ideas on their own or using a generator of some sort? Or flipping a coin?


Sure. And the same thing can happen in any other system. I mean, you're aware that in most games, you get XP for accomplishing goals. Same is true in D&D for those of us who use milestone/story-based progression.


Same thing in D&D.


So why is this superior than the GM coming up with a plot before hand?

If your only thing is that it's faster, that's one thing. But that's also simply a matter of taste. In this case, you need to learn how to say "I prefer this system because it is faster," not "this system is better because it is faster."


Same thing in D&D.

The only true difference is that, if I needed the stats for the witch, I would either have to make them up or pull out one of my monster books and grab stats from there.

I think the thing you're missing here, perhaps unconsciously, is that D&D (let's call it 5E for clarity) doesn't have set processes and principles to guide the GM through these judgments. Ironsworn, Dungeon World, etc do. That's a big heaping difference!

 

[Faolyn]

I think the thing you're missing here, perhaps unconsciously, is that D&D (let's call it 5E for clarity) doesn't have set processes and principles to guide the GM through these judgments. Ironsworn, Dungeon World, etc do. That's a big heaping difference!

No, I know that. And D&D would be much better if they included this sort of advice--and my own GMing in Level Up has been better after running Monster of the Week. But what that actually means is that the rulebooks of some games are better written and/or more useful than the books of other games--not that the game itself is better.

 

[mamba]

I think the thing you're missing here, perhaps unconsciously, is that D&D (let's call it 5E for clarity) doesn't have set processes and principles to guide the GM through these judgments. Ironsworn, Dungeon World, etc do. That's a big heaping difference!

in the core books, there are plenty of books that do offer that. You could even use Ironsworn tables to generate a plot outline for D&D I assume.

 

[Hussar]

snip--not that the game itself is better.

I’d point out that “better” has never been what I said. Easier? Yup. I’ll stand by that. But better is the interpretation that others have added despite my repeatedly saying that it’s not.

 

[Hussar]

As far as adapting travel rules, one nice thing is the dice actually line up nicely. Change the dice from d6 and 2d10 to d12 vs 2d20 and you can use the character’s skills to add to the die.

After that you more or less run it like an Ironsworn Travel challenge. Make your move, succeed or fail and repeat until you’ve accrued enough successes to attempt to complete the journey.

 

[pemerton]

How did they travel to the location that doesn't exist yet? How did they know where it was? How did the DM know how long it would take to get there? So many questions.

you overcomplicate things, how did you know these things in your sandbox with one page of prep?

Look at the Ironsworn rules I posted - it has answers to these questions that D&D, by default, does not.

As far as adapting travel rules, one nice thing is the dice actually line up nicely. Change the dice from d6 and 2d10 to d12 vs 2d20 and you can use the character’s skills to add to the die.

After that you more or less run it like an Ironsworn Travel challenge. Make your move, succeed or fail and repeat until you’ve accrued enough successes to attempt to complete the journey.

in the core books, there are plenty of books that do offer that. You could even use Ironsworn tables to generate a plot outline for D&D I assume.

5e D&D, by default, doesn't have a concept of strong hit, or weak hit, or paying the price on a miss.

But look at Hussar's post that I've quoted - that's what adapting Ironsworn to D&D looks like!