D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

This sounds to me like "Yes, but I don't care", not "No." Yet it is being presented as though it were "No, you're just wrong."
I read it as ‘it doesn’t matter how good / fast it is at creating an omelette when I want to eat a steak’, i.e. if it is fast at creating a sandbox I have no interest in, then it being fast at doing so by sacrificing the things I do have an interest in does not help it one bit.
 

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I read it as ‘it doesn’t matter how good / fast it is at creating an omelette when I want to eat a steak’, i.e. if it is fast at creating a sandbox I have no interest in, then it being fast at doing so by sacrificing the things I do have an interest in does not help it one bit.
Okay....?

That is still passing off agreement that X is good/fast at making omelettes as somehow a rejection of the argument. Hussar has been quite clear that all he is saying is "X is good/fast at making omelettes" and people keep responding with, "You aren't allowed to say that. Nothing can be better/faster at making omelettes."

It isn't a defense of "nothing can be better/faster at making omelettes" to say "sure, that's better/faster at making omelettes, I don't want omelettes so it doesn't matter to me".

Like I just can't see any way that this isn't agreeing with the fundamental point, but trying to extract a refutation from that agreement by saying, effectively, you're having a different conversation than the one we've been having up to this point.
 

People regularly say their system is "better" because it works differently and I don't see what point they're trying to make.

Well, that's an opportunity, but it won't be one you can exploit by being confrontational.

If you are actually curious about their point, and what they think (as opposed to being interested in proving them wrong), you can ask questions about their particular needs and desires, and how they game is better, for them.

Engage in being curious, rather than in trying to judge, and all that.
 

I mean, I would argue that "I just want to do it my way and anything which prevents me from doing it my way is The Worst Thing Ever" is fundamentally a rejection of the concept of game design in the first place. IMO, such people do not want to play games. They want to do the thing they want to do, the game is just a convenient guise for doing what they want to do.

All this is acknowledging is that people have different preferences and tastes about what makes an RPG good at X or Y. RPGs should do what people want them to do and different people want them to different things. Saying that not every RPG needs a rule for X, or that your particular rule for X doesn't do it for them, something isn't a rejection of game design. Some people just prefer that aspect of play to be freeform or they don't like rules for that aspect handled in certain ways (perhaps they want something lighter, crunchier, less abstract, more abstract, etc). That is part of understanding what game design ought to be doing.

Which, yes, if you have a single procedure you want to use and you never ever want to see or hear or even think about anything else, then of course no game can be better or worse, by definition. But games are designed, and design can be a good fit or a poor fit for a specific gameplay goal.

Some people are going to find one system that does everything the way they want, and that is totally fine. But that isn't what I am talking about here. I am talking about how much we tend to glide over taste and preference when talking about whether games are designed well or poorly for X. I agree some games are not a great fit for certain goals. But you have to dive into what people are looking for. You can't remove the opinions of the people you are designing the game for from the equation (including your own). And that is going to mean, some games do X well for certain people, but not for others. Both might be very interested in X, but want to achieve X in different ways.

I do think you can talk about objective things though much more easily. You can measure how long combat takes, you can measure how long prep takes. That is pretty easy stuff to measure and discuss.

A Volkswagen Beetle can be used to tow things, but it's not designed for doing so and will be much harder to use than something that was designed for that purpose. The Socratic Method is great for annoying people and working with a cooperative person to drill down to the deepest substratum of a particular topic (which, as Plato's writing shows, often results in "well we don't really know anything" or "we just sort of assumed this is what it is"), but it's pretty useless for developing your own answers. (I mention this, an abstract thing, to show that the physical analogy is not faulty as a consequence of being physical--abstractions can also be better-suited or worse-suited for particular activities or purposes.)

I do think cars are a very bad analogy. A car either can't tow a certain amount of weight well or it can. And there probably isn't huge variance in opinions on things where someone would pick a beetle over a tow truck for their repo service (if anyone who knows more about towing wants to correct feel free, as I know nothing about it). But take something like combat in RPGs. If you say a game does combat well, that could mean almost anything. One person's definition of a game doing combat well, could be another person's definition of it doing combat poorly. Some people want the mechanics for combat to be crunchy and almost a game unto themselves, some people want light combat that is exciting but doesn't interfere with a fast paced session, some people want combat that connects better to the story, some people want combat that has tactical options but is fairly light, some people want tactical options but with a lot of crunch. Now if the numbers are all messed up and the game is clearly not doing what people want it to, that is a separate issue. But a lot of what we are debating isn't so much whether the game actually does X well, it is about how the posters feel it ought to do X


Yes, you are correct that the sum total of a game should be considered if one is recommending the whole game for any purpose a person might value. But that flatly is not a valid reason to conclude--as has been argued here--that it is objectively false to say that some games are better-suited for a singular specific task than others.

I do think we can talk comparatively. But like I said to Umbran, it gets murky because gamers have idiosyncratic tastes. The thing that might look great to you on paper, may not be great in practice for everyone. And you have to account for personal taste. So yes you can talk about whether a game does politics well, but you also have to account for the fact that people want politics handled in different ways mechanically, and there are people who don't want mechanics for politics (so for them, a game with no rules for politics, does politics well). RPGs are open. They aren't board games. So I just don't think you can measure quality in the same way


An electric mixer is, objectively, better suited to many cooking tasks than stirring things by hand. Some people will still prefer the arduous labor of hand-mixing for various reasons. That doesn't mean the mixer and the spoon cannot possibly be compared for ease-of-use at the specific task of mixing ingredients. It just means that ease-of-use for that purpose isn't the only consideration a person might have in deciding what methods to use.
Again I think these analogies break down. But we would probably both agree that an electric mixer producers a different consistency and end result for making pesto than a mortar and pestle. I've used both methods. I don't one is superior to another. Sometimes I want pesto that has been made in a mortar and pestle, sometimes I want a smoother consistency from a mixer. The same logic can be applied to sandbox. If you have a low prep system, sure that is going to be easier to prep (your prep will be smoother). But for a lot of people 1) they enjoy the prep and 2) they prefer the flavor of a prep heavy game that doesn't do things the way Ironsworn does. They don't have to like it just because Hussar does
 

So, by this logic, it is impossible to ever say that any system is ever not particularly good for any particular things?

I can bill D&D as being precisely as good at literally anything as any other system, regardless of design differences? I can bill any other system as precisely as good as D&D at turn-based combat?

Because that's the logical result of this argument. No system can ever be better or worse at any use, no matter what. And I find that claim completely ridiculous. FATAL is just as good as D&D? Absolutely the Nine Hells not.
No, but it's ridiculous to say that because of one or two factors, system A is better than system B. Such as Hussar saying that because Ironsworn is faster, it is better for sandboxes--when speed is not actually a requirement for sandboxes. No, the fact that Ironsworn (and other, similar games) are faster makes it better for Hussar's preferred style of play. It's not going to make it better for people who like creating or learning world lore.
 

There should be two separate questions:
1) Does game X do thing Y well?
2) Do I want to use game X? Why or why not?

One should not have to deny a game does something you want to do well in order to claim you don't want to use it.

Though that can (and I know people are going to roll their eyes at this) by what application of "well" you're using. As an example, a lot of people consider a game that plays faster to be doing something "well", but I only do to the degree it also still produces the desirable amount of meaningful decisionmaking and decent output I want; speed means nothing to me by itself, as any game can be made quicker by progressively stripping out features I want.
 

But that isn't the argument that was being made. "It's adequate enough to get by, even if it isn't as good at something specifically designed for some particular thing" would be perfectly fine.

The argument given was:


"You are not allowed to have the opinion that one system is better at a particular task than any other" is the only possible logical conclusion from this. That "[X system] is better at <style A> while [Y system] is better at <style B>" is an inherently invalid position to take.

This is why I am reacting so strongly to this. It is the direct rejection of any possibility of comparing the effectiveness of any system at any action or activity ever, no matter what. No system can ever be better or worse at anything.
If a person enjoys using a particular game for a particular task, and someone else comes in and claims that the game is in fact "adequate" or even bad at that task compared to some other game they favor (which the person may dislike for other reasons), it is easy to conclude that the person is being told their enjoyment is wrong in some way, and that may result in "strong reactions".
 

So, again, just to make this point as simple as possible:

It is not possible for any game to be better-suited to any purpose. Anyone who has ever said anything like that is objectively wrong. No game, regardless of mechanics, is ever better or worse at anything anyone can conceive of it doing.

52 Pickup is now precisely as good a sandbox game as D&D. That is the level of utter absurdity being asserted here.
It's true IMO that it is not objectively possible. All you can do is state your opinion and make your case, ideally in a respectful way, and hopefully be ok with folks having a different subjective opinion on the matter than yourself.
 
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So, again, just to make this point as simple as possible:

It is not possible for any game to be better-suited to any purpose. Anyone who has ever said anything like that is objectively wrong. No game, regardless of mechanics, is ever better or worse at anything anyone can conceive of it doing.

52 Pickup is now precisely as good a sandbox game as D&D. That is the level of utter absurdity being asserted here.
Well, it's rather absurd to compare a prank to an RPG, yes.

But yeah. A game may try to specialize in a particular aspect of play, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's actually better at it than other games are.

To keep to the subject at hand, you have two games: one game, A, that is built so that the entire group creates the world as you go along, and the other game, B, that makes no assumptions on that front--you can build it as you go along, you can have a "300 page book of world lore", you can have a tiny area filled in and build the rest of the world at later times[1], or anything in between. Can you really say that one of these games is objectively better than the other when it comes to sandboxes?

As far as I've been able to see, in all of the games I've played or read, the only way to actually make a game not good at something is to have absolutely no rules for something that actually needs rules for it. Like, I've seen lots of games with no combat rules, for instance.

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[1] This is what my current Level Up game is like--I fleshed out the city a fair amount (with the help of the players) but I know almost nothing about the rest of the world, and I'm not going to bother about it until, or if, the PCs decide to go there.
 


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