D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

It was absolutely using "you can't just say one system is generically better than another" as the basis of the claim.
no it did not, you just cut it off too early
No, but it's ridiculous to say that because of one or two factors, system A is better than system B. Such as Hussar saying that because Ironsworn is faster, it is better for sandboxes
the factor here is faster and the context is better for sandboxes, not better at everything. How would that even work, faster at sandboxes obviously does not make you better at everything, heck, as you may have noticed people do not even agree that this makes it better at sandboxes...
 

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Which is exactly why it's so flexible and can support so many different styles and types of play, with 'sandbox' being but one of many: you can tweak or add or drop a subsystem to bring things closer to what you/your table want without butchering the whole game in the process.

Disparate subsystems are a feature, not a bug.

Not the point.

Do not confuse "this game supports X, Y, and Z" with ""this game was designed to support X, Y, and Z".
 


Sure, but we rarely get actual descriptions of how something works.

What, you think folks are going to drop a fully-written and documented research thesis in your lap?

That's the point of the conversation! If you want to get descriptions of how things work, you're going to have to draw people out in talk about what they love.

Indeed, you'll probably need several conversations with different people, each with their own perspectives, and their commonalities will probably be indicative of how the thing really gets done what those people find valuable.
 

I’ve been refereeing sandbox campaigns since the early 1980s, using a variety of settings and systems. Over that time, I’ve found that most systems, throughout the decades, can support a sandbox campaign just fine.

In my experience, it's not the system itself that matters most for sandbox play. It’s the techniques the referee uses, especially how the referee handles player-driven action and keeps the world moving.

Now, some systems fit certain settings better than others. Some systems make it easier to prep those setting or to keep things flowing for specific setting with less overhead. But when it comes to whether a campaign can truly be a sandbox, where players can make their own decisions and push the world in their own directions, most systems have no problem supporting that.

The only time I've seen a system seriously get in the way is when the author goes out of their way to lock down how the narrative of a campaign must unfold. If the mechanics are designed to limit the referee or players to specific choices, or to heavily limit the range of possible actions, to support a particular narrative. Then yes, player agency can be curtailed and the ability of the players to trash the setting non existant. But those systems are the exception, not the rule. In most cases, even fairly structured games can be run as sandboxes if the referee focuses on world reaction rather than outcomes designed to further a specific narrative.

A few quick notes
  • "All campaigns have player choice."
    Sure, but sandbox campaigns widen that choice considerably. Players aren't just picking between a few preset options. They’re setting their own goals as if they are inhabiting the setting as their character and reshaping the circumstances according.
  • "Sandbox play is bad or lazy GMing."
    Sandbox referees still prepare, but what is prepared are situations, locations, and relationships, not narratives. It’s a different kind of planning focused on responsiveness.
  • "Sandbox games leave players aimless."
    A good sandbox referee creates a strong initial context, factions, opportunities, rumors, that gives players plenty of ideas without dictating their goals.
  • "Sandbox only works for a rare type of player."
    Any group can adapt. Players just need to know they have true freedom and that the world will react meaningfully to their actions.
  • "System does matter."
    It matters for tone, speed, and prep, absolutely. But in terms of whether player-driven play is possible? The vast majority of systems leave that decision in the referee’s hands.
  • "Sandbox is just one style."
  • It’s not the only way to run campaigns. It’s just a particularly open and rewarding style for groups that want maximum player agency.

Wrapping it up.
For a system to truly block sandbox play, the author usually has to deliberately design it to limit player choice at the structural level. That’s rare. Most RPGs, even those with strong narrative tools, can be used to run a sandbox campaign with the right approach.

And far more common are systems that are great for specific settings and types of settings, including how a setting feels, but not as great when used outside of what they were designed for. This is a separate issue from whether a system is good for a sandbox campaign or not. Given the rarity of truly unsuitable systems, I think it’s far more common to find that a system simply isn’t suited to the type of setting the group wants to experience.
 

Not the point.

Do not confuse "this game supports X, Y, and Z" with ""this game was designed to support X, Y, and Z".
Your point about the design of D&D seems right, but I'll appeal to the death of the author here...I'm not sure designer intent matters much to this conversation. Lest your friend Carl's "52 card pickup sandbox RPG" qualifies as better for sandbox play than OD&D.
 

For its time, perhaps. But "for its time" means "when there were exceedingly few TTRPGs and we knew almost nothing about designing them".
I don't agree with this notion that classic D&D's core design is poor or unsatisfactory for sandboxing.

There are wobbly parts to the game - for instance, how does a ranger's ability to track etc interact with the rules for getting lost? But the core idea, of the players saying where their PCs go; the GM then (subject to the getting lost roll) tracking their movement on a map; and the GM using a combination of random rolls and the map key to tell the players what their PCs discover/encounter/experience; in my view are pretty solid.

I think there are further questions that can be asked about the degree of player agency in this sort of "hexcrawl" play - I think that classic D&D relies, for player agency, on methods and approaches that don't work very well outside of a dungeon. But that doesn't mean that the resolution process, in itself, is not workable.

Narrowly true. But I'd consider a world with a large amount of fixed content and some random rolls a sandbox. The random rolls actually add to the sandbox, imo. And "roll encounters on table X" is a type of fixed content. So it's a fuzzy boundary.
I think random encounters are a pretty core part of the "classic" sandbox.

But they sit within a structure: they are per <time period>; the time elapsed is calculated by reference to a pre-drawn map, and an already-established PC movement rate; the roll is made on a pre-authored table (as you say, a type of fixed content, and very analogous to a map key). So random encounters, done this way, reinforce the core resolution method, of map-and-key plus movement rates and movement tracking on a map.

They also involve improvisation/just-in-time authorship: the GM has to decide where the wandering beings comes from, what their motivations are, etc.

Reducing the reinforcement of the resolution method, while increasing the centrality of the improvisation, is one of the ways that post-classic-D&D design has built on classic techniques while doing slightly different things with them.

*****************************​

For what it's worth, I have my own currently-favoured process for a sandbox-y feel to journeying, namely, Torchbearer 2e journeys.

This does use a map, but the map doesn't need a scale or even accurate proportions. All the map has to do is indicate landmarks. The number of settlements and/or landmarks the PCs are passing on their journey determines base toll (normally 1 to 3 or 4-ish). Toll is also modified by weather (there are season-based random weather tables) and by a roll for "trouble on the road".

If the PCs aren't following a map, the players need to test Pathfinder (with the difficulty depending on distance, ie base toll). Adverse trouble on the road results also permit tests to negate toll penalties. And failed tests in TB2e permit the GM to narrate a twist - which is how "random" encounters, getting lost, etc happen in this system.

At the end of the journey, PCs suffer conditions (this is the system's general health/harm/debuff mechanic) equal to toll that they don't "buy off": toll is bought off via gear, supplies, spending money in settlements passed through, etc.

Like classic D&D, it uses a map (I use the World of Greyhawk for my TB2e game). Unlike classic D&D, the map can be shared with the players, as there is no secret component - eg if the PCs get lost, the GM does not need to secretly track movement. And there is no need to use movement rates or distances for resolution: these are just colour.

But I think the use of the map, and the calculation and buying off of toll, make it a bit more "gritty" and less rising action/climax-oriented than the Ironsworn approach.
 

Just for the heck of it, I looked up games designed for sandboxes. I found three posts asking that question, one on a reddit post from last year and the other two on the RPGnet forums from 10+ years ago. Some suggestions, based on what the responders have said they have actually played as sandboxes:
  • <snipped to two entries>
  • Traveller
  • Burning Wheel
So I think what we can take from this list is you can run a sandbox in pretty much any system you want, including Phoenix Command.
I know two of the systems on your list very well.

Burning Wheel does permit "total freedom" of the sort that @Hussar described. It is not designed for the sort of learning of pre-authored setting details that you talked about upthread. It doesn't use map-and-key to resolve travel; journeying is just another test (say, on Orienteering) with failure narrated in the system's usual way.

Given the way that "sandbox" is normally used, I think characterising Burning Wheel as a sandbox game would tend to mislead.

Turning to Classic Traveller, it's system for resolving on-world exploration is terrible, in my view. I discovered this first-hand, in the third or fourth session of a game that I started some years ago. There are rules for rolling for vehicle malfunction on a per-time-period basis; and there are movement rates for vehicles; but all the distances just have to be made up by the GM, in the context of a game where moving from world to world is an assumed part of play.

After the first bad experience, I just avoided having on-world exploration in subsequent sessions. That's not to say that I avoided on-world action - but it wasn't based around trying to get to certain places in a certain time without getting lost or similar.
 

Not the point.

Do not confuse "this game supports X, Y, and Z" with ""this game was designed to support X, Y, and Z".
Doesn't matter what it was designed for. What matters is what it functions as - or can function as - once people start playing it.

A non-gaming example of what I mean: Ozempyc (sp.?) wasn't designed as a weight-loss drug, and yet.....
 

Doesn't matter what it was designed for. What matters is what it functions as - or can function as - once people start playing it.

A non-gaming example of what I mean: Ozempyc (sp.?) wasn't designed as a weight-loss drug, and yet.....
Surely there is a vast difference between discovering a useful but unintended application in something like a drug, and (as my previous analogy used) saying that a Volkswagen Beetle isn't designed for towing but a Ford F-150 is.

If we use the ridiculously loose standard of "can be used as", we're right back at 52 Pickup. Anything CAN be used for anything when it comes to game design. Anything CAN function as anything.

But something designed for a particular purpose, that fulfills that design goal, should be better in at least some measurable ways than something that was not. That's literally what it means for something to be designed for a purpose (again, assuming that it is not outright badly designed.)
 

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