D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

It can be a problem for me! And I've known - and know - other RPGers for whom it can also be a problem. I don't care how compelling the GM thinks the NPC's character is - if the likely consequences and prospects of success of my action declarations aren't knowable by me as a player, then how am I supposed to play the game?

And as a more general point, I would say that secret GM decisions about what NPCs will do in certain situations is a core part of the railroader's repertoire!

Okay and I said it is perfectly fine to want something else. My only point is this might be an issue for you: it isn't for me. I see it as a good thing when a GM has this much governance over NPC motivations
 

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This is an extremely radical position of GM privilege. The same privilege of protagonism that I want for my fighter should apply to the GM and his billions of NPCs?
No, but like any tool it should be used when appropriate.

I had a real problem with the 4e fighter power Come and Get It because it made anyone in the radius, regardless of intelligence or combat ability, run up black ninja style to get hit by the fighter. It didn't matter who. Archers, mages, oozes, dragons, Vecna, other PCs (if you allowed pvp) they lost all autonomy and ran up for their whack. And it wasn't a magical or supernatural ability, it was framed as mundane combat ability.

I don't like when the game forces me to play my character counter to how they have been described to be played. I don't like it as a player, I don't like it as a DM. I do allow PCs to influence/deceive/intimidate most NPCs, but I DO reserve the right to X card actions that are clearly nonsensical. In return, I never force a PC to react to an NPC unless mind magic is involved. I don't intimidate, seduce, or force persuasion. An NPC can seem intimidating or seductive, but the player has the final say. I do too, even if 99% of the time I will go along with what the PCs rolls.
 


Why assume that the GM is making it up right there and then. Maybe it's part of an established religious belief?
Because such a restriction is so ludicrous, I genuinely don't believe anyone would actually hold that belief. It borders on poor-taste parody of actual religious belief.

It would require extensive--dare I say extreme!--effort on the DM's part to make me believe that any being with even a minimal amount of rationality actually does believe that. Certainly, it would take extensive effort on the DM's part to make me believe that any actual religion held such an utterly ridiculous, harmful belief. Making a person responsible for not just their own damnation, but their whole family's, from a single act, is so far beyond the pale...it's a bit hard to describe.
 

I'm trying to think of a recent real world example where a group of people has abandoned their previous set of beliefs and chosen the polar opposite, in a way that would have seemed impossible before, but I'm drawing a blank.
The only examples that come to mind are political, none of which would be a welcome topic of discussion here, I suspect.

So probably best not to poke that particular dragon.
 

Those 3 x bullet points that I put forth aren't things I would put forth as techniques. I meant them as principled constraints and requirements.

For instance, engineers (including those in charge of aesthetics) and brand fans might say a Lotus coupe must have the following benchmarks:

  • Be uniquely lightweight and possessed of x power to weight ratio.
  • Produce unparalleled driver connectivity to steering and handling responsiveness.
  • Strip away "cockpit cruft" and anything that distracts from or detracts from an exclusive driver-experience.
  • Look (roughly) like this.

Those are the principled constraints and requirements. How the engineers and those in charge of aesthetics implement those principled constraints and requirements are the techniques.

Same goes for TTRPGing.

So, for instance, Duskvol is a coherently constrained space. The techniques employed in making it so are (a) generation of fictional architecture featuring a supernatural apocalypse that has rendered the outside world nigh uninhabitable, (b) thereby going outside is overwhelmingly "juice ain't worth the squeeze" (except in specific scenarios that may or may not see the light of day...typically depending upon whether the Crew takes on a Smuggling job into The Deathlands and/or some character premise becomes tied to that haunted wasteland), (c) and this situation-state is reflected by several transparent gamestate-impactors implemented in concert (rare gear requirements that are difficult to get and are heavy cost on Loadout, Volatile consequences for the Deathlands, high Magnitude dangers and an attendant higher proportion of Master Tier Threat NPCs, Ghosts everywhere which trigger inherent mechanical effect when exposed to, high Magnitude supernatural pestilence, an enormously high Magnitude desolate expanse that must be endured and traversed to get anywhere of consequence).

In another thread, I wrote about a technique I have developed that will render my first bullet point (a principled constraint and requirement) above more effective and efficient:

View attachment 403961




This was actually one of the more productive exchanges, to be honest. If we're struggling to land in the same place on the differences between principled constraints and requirements and techniques employed to implement the former, that is certainly going to have some explanatory power for other issues. Particularly the "actionable gamestate" impacts of "black-box resolution."

I'm just going to screen snip the below exchange between @soviet and @Bedrockgames , because it is relevant.

View attachment 403977

This is a back-and-forth around "black-box GM decision-making" and its impact on either actual railroads or players becoming oriented to play as if they are experience a railroad. The way I see it, these two states have so little daylight between the two of them that they are useless to even distinguish (except in terms of diagnoses and overt, transparent measures taken to rectify). If the play itself feels like a railroad to players, it doesn't matter whether the GM is authentically aiming at railroading or not...the play is consequentially a railroad. Something "wrong" is happening. Whether that something wrong is at the concept-level or at implementation level or even player-side (sometimes players don't know system as well as they should, therefore the proverbial "black box" is actually of their own making...and they should take accountability for that and rectify the situation by learning the system)...doesn't matter. The table needs to recognize it, admit it, understand it, and resolve it.

Imo, the worst way to do this is the passive expectation that offloading this onto social contract (amongst a group of people that are possessed of one or more conflict-averse people) will just do this heavy lifting and it will all magically go away.

Imo, the best way to do this is all member parties being active, transparent, responsible for their part, and accountable to themselves and each other. All member parties here includes "system" because this is the all-important layer where (a) actual gameplay (where gamestate movement from here to there is facilitated) becomes coherently decipherable to all parties and (b) therefore actionable. And when it comes to gameplay being coherently decipherable and therefore actionable, players who "don't know what is happening when we (GMs) make these kinds of choices" have their actual gameplay come undone precisely because of the associated absence of coherently decipherable and therefore actionable. Hence, black-box GMing isn't just a problem for the perception/implementation of a railroad...it is a problem for coherently decipherable and actionable gameplay for players.

And this, of course is where we circle back to "high trust." "Just trust your GM." Trust doesn't always do the work when concerns around railroading are made manifest. And trust definitely doesn't do the work when actual gameplay ceases to become coherently decipherable and actionable...in that case you're left "trusting the GM will basically play the game for you in such a way that your desired outcome comes to pass." But gameplay isn't about desired outcomes. Gameplay is about actually doing the things and experiencing your doing of the things which may or may not lead to desired outcomes. If someone else is doing the things in your stead, the actual gameplay loop becomes absent for the player.

I didn't mention railroading at all. My position is that the form of decision making being presented ('there's a world simulation running in my head, it is impartial and inevitable') is impossible. It doesn't work as a cover for railroading but it also doesn't work for any other abrogation of responsibility. It's a GM making some stuff up.
 

Why is it that we are told GMs will only ever make decisions in the best interests of the game, but if you give players even an inch they will attempt to climb rainbows and persuade the King to give them his kingdom?
Because that's a different style of game we maybe don't want to play all the time?
 

It's also one aspect of what makes the game enjoyable to me as both GM and player. As a player I don't want to know enough about every NPC I encounter to know why they make their decision. Do you really want to know everything about every NPC you encounter in a game?
Wouldn't the same logic apply to the GM? 'Oh I wonder whether Bob can be persuaded here'
 


I didn't mention railroading at all. My position is that the form of decision making being presented ('there's a world simulation running in my head, it is impartial and inevitable') is impossible. It doesn't work as a cover for railroading but it also doesn't work for any other abrogation of responsibility. It's a GM making some stuff up.

Every time you play an RPG someone is making stuff up. It may be the GM, it may be the GM and the players, it may be based on tables made up by the author of the rules. I don't have an issue with the first option, if you do there are plenty of other options out there.
 

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