D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[CreamCloud0]

First off this is not the easiest way. By far the easiest way to close the gap at levels where casters are better is to leave the casters alone and just give the martials spells (or more spells) at certain levels.

i don't know if by 'spells' here you actually meant in a shorthand way abilities like manoeuvres and such, but if not then i can't agree that the way to balance the martials with the casters is to turn the martials into casters, because then they're not really martials any more are they?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

First off this is not the easiest way. By far the easiest way to close the gap at levels where casters are better is to leave the casters alone and just give the martials spells (or more spells) at certain levels.

Also, your table is off and does not actually fix the problem for two reasons.

First casters actually need more spells at some levels (because non-casters are actually better at some levels) and less spells at other levels. For example a 3rd level fighter is MUCH better overall than a 3rd level Wizard, substantially better in all 3 pillars of the game. To balance these classes at 3rd level you would need to give the Wizard more spells than the rules do.

Second not all casters are the same. You also have to vary it for each caster class independently. Both a 3rd level Wizard and a 3rd level Druid need extra spells to close the divide with Fighters, but a 3rd level Wizard needs more extra slots than a Druid does.

Given that the popularity of martials like Fighters was retained even in editions where it was known and acknowledged that there were severe balance issues, it would seem to imply that a significant number of people like the concept of a martial, rather than a spellcaster. Removing martial classes from the game by making every class a spellcaster would just deny people the ability to play a concept so evocative, it stood is ground even in the face of CoDzilla & Co.

While at 3rd level I do think it likely that fighters have the edge over wizards in combat, given enough encounters in the day, I think that you're going to have to back up your claim that they are "substantially better" outside of combat.
Both classes are able to burn combat resources to help them out in other pillars. Neither class has good reason to invest in socially-relevant ability scores, so that's a wash.
Wizards have the capability to have better base skill bonuses than fighters however, plus a significant edge in their ability to cast rituals better than any other class. Even a non-optimised wizard is going to have picked quite a number of rituals for their spellbook at this point.

. . . I'm pretty sure we have already talked about this already in this thread however.

 

[mellored]

First off this is not the easiest way. By far the easiest way to close the gap at levels where casters are better is to leave the casters alone and just give the martials spells (or more spells) at certain levels.

I mean, kill off all martials would technically balance them, but I don't think that's the best solution.

For example a 3rd level fighter is MUCH better overall than a 3rd level Wizard, substantially better in all 3 pillars of the game. To balance these classes at 3rd level you would need to give the Wizard more spells than the rules do.

I added a few more spells at lower levels.
Removed them at higher levels.

Second not all casters are the same. You also have to vary it for each caster class independently. Both a 3rd level Wizard and a 3rd level Druid need extra spells to close the divide with Fighters, but a 3rd level Wizard needs more extra slots than a Druid does.

Wizards gets arcane recovery
Druid gets wild shape
Sorcerer's have spell points
Cleric have channel divinity
Same as before.

 

[Corinnguard]

First off this is not the easiest way. By far the easiest way to close the gap at levels where casters are better is to leave the casters alone and just give the martials spells (or more spells) at certain levels.

Or do what Level Up did by granting the martial classes proficiency in 2-3 Combat Traditions.

 

[Distracted DM]

Or do what Level Up did by granting the martial classes proficiency in 2-3 Combat Traditions.

Honestly Level Up A5E almost swings the divide the other way, which is saying something.
In most encounters levels 5-10, I am more worried about what the fighter or berserker can do than what spells the casters can bring to bear
It's only in tier 3 that the casters start to gain a bit of ground back.

 

[ECMO3]

i don't know if by 'spells' here you actually meant in a shorthand way abilities like manoeuvres and such, but if not then i can't agree that the way to balance the martials with the casters is to turn the martials into casters, because then they're not really martials any more are they?

No I mean spell slots and spells prepared.

They are still martials, Rangers and Paladins all cast spells, would you say they are not martials? So do Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights, several Monk subclasses and any characters with a species that gives them spells.

Plenty of martials cast spells in the game and as a matter of fact martials that don't cast spells are the exception.

While at 3rd level I do think it likely that fighters have the edge over wizards in combat, given enough encounters in the day, I think that you're going to have to back up your claim that they are "substantially better" outside of combat.

In terms of mechanics the social pillars are dominated by skill checks and Tactical Mind makes fighters by far the best at skill checks overall at 3rd level. The fact that you chose to use it after you fail and the use is not used up if it is still a fail means they are substantially better than Wizards (and even Rogues and Bards) at 3rd level.

At 3rd level Tactical Mind blows away expertise and spells that are used in the social and exploration pillars. Expertise is +2 over proficiency at this level, tactical mind in +5.5 on average and you are not locked into a handful of skills, you can use it on anything/everything and have 2 uses plus one more with every short rest.

Fighters stay among the best at the social and exploration pillars all the way through 20th level, although Rogues and full casters get competitive in tier 3 when expertise starts to catch up and spell slots get more numerous.

If you play with powergamers you see this all the time using the 2024 rules and Tactical Mind is the most common use of Second Wind at low level (after level 2). With healing potions becoming a bonus action both for the PC using it and for allies administering it to others; you hardly ever see Second Wind in combat any more between levels 2 and level 4. The only time we really see it at these levels is when you are about to do a short rest and are down a few hit points and will get the use back. It does come back into use at 5th level when tactical shift comes online, mostly on melee oriented builds that use it for the movement.

 

[ECMO3]

Given that the popularity of martials like Fighters was retained even in editions where it was known and acknowledged that there were severe balance issues, it would seem to imply that a significant number of people like the concept of a martial, rather than a spellcaster.

I don't think this is true. Plenty of people love fighters, and other martials. I don't think very many people like non-casters.

Moreover popularity is not what we are talking about, it is how to balance martials. Anything you do to balance them will make them less popular IMO.

 

[ezo]

as a matter of fact martials that don't cast spells are the exception.

More is the pity...

 

[ECMO3]

I mean, kill off all martials would technically balance them, but I don't think that's the best solution.

Giving martials spells does not kill martials, they are still martials with spells (like Rqangers and Paladins already are).

Also I am not talking about thew best solution, I am talking about the easiest solution.

Wizards gets arcane recovery
Druid gets wild shape
Sorcerer's have spell points
Cleric have channel divinity
Same as before.

Yeah those things are not equal at 3rd level (or any level). Wild Shape and Channel Divinity are not even a thing at 1st level.

 

[Corinnguard]

They are still martials, Rangers and Paladins all cast spells, would you say they are not martials? So do Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights, several Monk subclasses and any characters with a species that gives them spells.

The fact that Rangers and Paladins are half-casters merely points out that the martial/caster issue resides on something of a spectrum with non-casters and full casters sitting at both ends, and everyone else in between. However, as a full caster levels up at higher tier levels, they can out-do the martials by using more powerful spells that are limited only through the number of available spell slots. .

To give the martials, an edge, they can be equipped by their own version of spells- the combat maneuvers. Like the ones provided by Level Up's Combat traditions, which steadily become more powerful with each degree (the equivalent of a spellcasting level) they attain. There are even a couple of Combat traditions that do make use of a little magic like Arcane Knight and Cutting Omen.

So, the Ranger and the Herald (the A5e version of the Paladin) are basically Half-Caster/Half-Combat Maneuver specialists.