D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Wow. I do not play that way. It never occurred to me to play that way. How does my persuasion check determine the moral character of an npc?
It doesn't. It just determines if he is bribable or not. Let's say the guard is NE, he's likely to be bribable so I'd set the DC lower than a guard who was LG or LN. Alignment for me determines the moral character of the NPC. But no one is perfect and I don't know if this particular guard is going to be bribable or not, so roll away.
 

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Fair enough. I can see that the GM can strive to be impartial but I see it is aspirational not something you can ever achieve in a system where the GM is not constrained in any meaningful way to actually be impartial.

Which I suppose is a rather long winded way I’d agreeing to disagree.
I agree that you can't be perfectly impartial, but I do think you can get close enough that it doesn't matter.
 

Of course.

What they didn’t do was point to an unmarked bit of forest on the map and say, “hey let’s go here!”
It's pretty darn rare, but I have seen it. Usually if the geography is very unusual in and of itself. There was one time that a ring of mountains surrounded a small, flat plains. We decided to see if there was a reason for that and went there. I can't remember any of the other occasions.

I've also seen, "Let's just head north(insert other direction here) and see what we run into." a few times.

By and large, though, groups go to ruins, dark forests and the like.
Iow, the content is still generated by the dm. You weren’t just exploring. You had a specific goal in mind.
Sure, but the goal is exploration. It was just the exploration of a specific area of the map and everything in-between that the group has to travel through. There's nothing beyond exploration involved at that point. Later on if the party comes to a town or city near the forest and asks around, perhaps someone will have an adventure hook dealing with the forest adding another goal.
 

I guess, at the end of the day, I just don’t see what the problem is with admitting that the dm is never really impartial. To me it’s far more important to realize that no I’m never really impartial and recognize that.

From there I can see how my biases are impacting play and try to ameliorate those biases.

A living world, to me, cannot be even remotely impartial because all of those events have a single source. And that source will have biases. @Bedrockgames above mentioned he would never use zombie hordes. That’s a bias. Others have mentioned various options they would or would not do. These are all biases.

And that’s perfectly fine. It’s totally understandable. But to then pretend that these aren’t biases, by trying to hide behind claims of “realism” or whatnot that are anything but, are not helpful.

I see it more that a certain subset of gamers has staked out certain terms as good and definitional to their play styles and then fiddle with the definitions to support that.
No one is saying there aren’t biases. Again it is about the goal of bringing impartial and striving for it. For me that is very important to running one. Doesn’t mean you don’t have biases. It means you are trying to be as impartial as you can
 

A living world, to me, cannot be even remotely impartial because all of those events have a single source. And that source will have biases. @Bedrockgames above mentioned he would never use zombie hordes. That’s a bias. Others have mentioned various options they would or would not do. These are all biases.
impartiality isn’t about setting creation or setting integrity, it is more on the adjudication side. For example if players go to a gambling hall and I know the proprietor has Madame Wu’s leg taking strike, and I can tell conflict between him and the party is brewing, I try to put aside biases I might have about him using or not using that technique on a PC, and use my best judgment about whether he would or not. If I find myself leaning towards he would, I think I have to ask myself if that is because I personally think it adds more excitement to play or is it what I think the NPC would genuinely do. That is an extreme example but cokes up with other aspects of NPC motivation and I think at least doing your best to be as impartial as you can, is important for fair play. And if I ultimately decide he would, I think I have even more duty to mind my impartiality and make sure I am being fair and even-handed to the PCs as things progress. I want a let the dice fall where they may approach but I also don’t want players feeling like I screwed them over
 

I agree that you can't be perfectly impartial, but I do think you can get close enough that it doesn't matter.
Yes. If I am genuinely trying to be impartial and feel that I'm succeeding and the players who have participated in my games over the past couple of decades feel I am extremely fair and impartial, then I'm quite comfortable in asserting that I am, in fact, impartial, by any meaningful standard. (Conversely, in my current campaign, impartiality in the way the world operates is not as important and I've been clear up front that I'm intentionally setting up things suitable to the game's genre and style.)
You weren’t just exploring. You had a specific goal in mind.
But the goal was to explore a place. You can't say that exploration doesn't count as exploration in any situation where the goal is to explore. Or, I mean, you can, but it's an argument that makes no sense.
 

It's not really a dodge. Diamonds are common as spit, but we value them greatly. Cryptocurrency doesn't exist, yet Bitcoin is sitting at $96,786.54 a piece right now.

Why are they valuable? Because people value those things. It's really not any more complicated than that. The same goes for playstyles.
Except that both of those things have actual answers to the question. The first is "diamond companies have had an extremely successful ad campaign and have convinced people synthetic gemstones are inferior". Bitcoin, likewise, has greater-fool theory as is the case with most speculative bubbles.

If players are electing to do X thing, why? Saying "sometimes the means justify the ends" is an active non-answer, a "God works in mysterious ways" except it's applied to completely ordinary people doing completely ordinary things for...no reason other than because it might, possibly, result in something interesting eventually?

That's not how people work. Sure, a small number of people might do that. But the vast majority are doing it for some reason. What is that reason?
 

I don't agree with that. In the real world, sure. When it comes to RPGs, trust should be extended until the DM does something to show he doesn't deserve it. The game runs on trust. Distrust spoils the game and makes the game unfun for just about everyone.
Are...

Are you saying RPG campaigns--that is, the games run by human beings here on Earth--don't occur in the real world?

Again, this isn't about DIStrust. It's that trust has to be earned. The natural state of being is neither trust nor distrust, 0 on the trust-vs-distrust number line. A certain amount of, as I have said, allowance/acceptance is required to get the ball rolling, but that is the opportunity for the DM to earn the trust they will apparently be constantly banking on in the future.
 

In my opinion, the bar to having harm done to you is set higher than having a bad experience in a session of D&D. There are exceptions as some bad experiences can be associated with similar very traumatic events the player experienced in the real world, but by and large no harm is done by bad DMs.
Then you and I have dramatically different ideas of what "harm" means.

I know a bad GM can be extremely harmful. I've seen it happen. A player emotionally shredded by a bad GM's behavior was, in fact, one of the things that kicked my rear in gear for becoming one myself.

Sufficient emotional pain to cause a person to cry counts as "harm" to me.
 

Except that both of those things have actual answers to the question. The first is "diamond companies have had an extremely successful ad campaign and have convinced people synthetic gemstones are inferior". Bitcoin, likewise, has greater-fool theory as is the case with most speculative bubbles.
First, diamonds have been valuable for far longer than companies have existed, let alone synthetic diamonds. Second, so what. The reasons are irrelevant. We all have reasons for what we find valuable. What the DM finds valuable in exploration can be different from player 1, and player two's reason can be different than the DM or player 1.

Reasons don't really matter. All that matters for the purposes of this thread is that people find value in things.
 

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