D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Hussar]

Might I suggest gentlemen that you follow my lead here. Post how you would develop your next sandbox. And then let's see where the discussion takes us?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Irrelevant.

I have exactly one friend within physical travel distance of me--and even that is at least a half-hour

Do you live in the middle of a desert? What’s stopping you making friends?

 

[robertsconley]

Might I suggest gentlemen that you follow my lead here. Post how you would develop your next sandbox. And then let's see where the discussion takes

Seriously?

My original blog posts are still up here

How to make a Fantasy Sandbox

Unlike a Traveller Sandbox making a Fantasy Sandbox is less straightforward. This is because Traveller at the stellar level has a uniform g...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

The bulk of the posts are on building out the Island Piall/Pyade as an illustrated example of how the different steps works.

 

[pemerton]

I think Micah is right about how they differ. You may not characterize 100% of things in complete detail. But in a certain sense that is the ideal; the only barrier is how practical it is, and the more true to the world the DM can be, the better.

This doesn't seem right to me: RPGing happens in time, by people talking to one another. So it's a feature of the medium, not a regrettable limitation, that what is said is finite and focused.

Whereas the ideal in BW seems to keep things diffuse, and to not define things until they are relevant. Indeed, if they were too defined beforehand, they may not pressure the characters in the appropriate way.

So here's a point that, in my experience, comes up repeatedly in discussions about the nature and purpose of prep.

Some posters - @Micah Sweet, perhaps you - treat the GM writing something up makes it, per se, a component of the fiction. Whereas to me, while writing something up is a fiction, it's not part of the shared fiction until it's shared. Its function, prior to being shared, is to serve as a type of constraint on, and prompt for, what the GM says.

But until it's actually said, who can tell whether it will be colour, or conflict? Someone not too far upthread - I can't remember who - posted about having parts of the setting "unfolding" in their notes, behind the scenes: the PCs aren't part of this, but the GM might use it to inform narration during play. That would be an example of something the GM has prepped turning out to be colour, rather than conflict.

 

[pemerton]

I think there is another key difference here. The goal in a fixed world sandbox isn't just to construct a world that has verisimilitude. It's for the world to feel that way to the players. If the players are taking an active role in constructing the world, then they know for a fact that there isn't that much defined; that if they explore two hills over, they may have to decide what happens there.

Is this conjecture, or assertion? If the latter, is this based on your experience?

It's extremely different from my experience: I posted, upthread, a series of scenes from BW play - Aedhros humiliating the harbour official, and then Alicia by stealing the key, and then Alicia taxing herself to unconsciousness by way of a mis-cast spell, which caused money to rain down, drawing the unwanted attention of the rag-clothed poor of the docks.

That felt pretty verisimilitudinous to me, in play. As I posted, the ragged poor were especially vivid - though so was the humiliated official. Of course I know they're all imaginary, but I know that of something written by the GM prior to the session, rather than during it.

 

[pemerton]

For the group that enjoys sandbox campaigns, a system with a focus like Torchbearer will be like railroading. The system continually forces them to deal with conflict, whether they desire it or not.

This seems to entail that Torchbearer is not a sandbox system. But this thread has led me to the view that it is; so I don't accept your contrast between "groups who enjoy sandbox campaigns" and a group playing Torchbearer.

But if someone doesn't want to deal with conflict as the centre of play, why would they play TB2e? That would be a strange thing to do!

The criticism of the sandbox campaign is that the referee's authority invariably leads to players' goals being subordinate to the referee's goals. Thus, players are invariably railroaded to deal with whatever the referee's goals are.

In case it's not clear,

(i) I'm not criticising anything; I'm describing it;

(ii) I don't suggest that a heavily GM driven sandbox leads to players' goals being subordinated to the referee's goals. My point is about who controls the shared fiction.

 

[Hussar]

Seriously?

View attachment 404415

My original blog posts are still up here

How to make a Fantasy Sandbox

Unlike a Traveller Sandbox making a Fantasy Sandbox is less straightforward. This is because Traveller at the stellar level has a uniform g...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

The bulk of the posts are on building out the Island Piall/Pyade as an illustrated example of how the different steps works.

Oh, sorry. No. Sorry. That wasn't directed at you at all @robertsconley. No. Absolutely not. You've been incredibly forthcoming and open about your work. Totally on board. I might disagree with some of your approaches, but, no, sorry, did not mean that you weren't being 100% open and helpful. I was addressing that at @EzekielRaiden and @pemerton.

Whoa, totally my bad.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Do you live in the middle of a desert? What’s stopping you making friends?

Intense social anxiety and being naturally introverted. Not having a car doesn't help either.

 

[The Firebird]

By definition, some aspects of the world are less important than others. It's simply the nature of engaging in narration, which every DM ever has had to do.

I don't disagree with this. But that doesn't mean I have to find the color term useful or instructive for my games. I don't.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't disagree with this. But that doesn't mean I have to find the color term useful or instructive for my games. I don't.

So literally the only problem isn't the distinction, which you agree is present and relevant...

It's literally just the word "color".

Even though you specifically said that this "meta distinction" was the problem.