D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But we have had several people in this very discussion give such examples--and that any time players go somewhere else, things are generated in response to player action, which has been explicitly held up as an unacceptable standard of the world only occurring because the players are playing!

Do you feel that's the same as the world only being determined because the players are playing? I mean that one seems a bit of an impossible standard if so, because no GM ever is going to determine the traits of every possible location a PC could reach. I doubt they could usually even do that within one town in most cases.
 

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I think that there can be instances of railroading within the game that new DMs might engage without realizing it, but that won't make the game a railroad. To make the campaign a full railroad takes intent. It's not going to happen accidentally.

Well, I disagree that intent is necessary. I suppose an intentional railroad is worse because the GM is actively denying player choice… but there are plenty of GMs who do so without realizing.

I know this because I’ve done my fair share of it. Never with any intention other than providing my players with an engaging experience… but I’ve done it.

And it was actively encouraged at the time in many products and many sources of advice and tips of the period. And that effect still lingers (some would say looms) in the hobby to this day.

So no, I don’t think bad faith is required.
 

There only are four or five sites. When players look anywhere else, then and only then is something else produced. At which point, you have--as has been explicitly rejected by several posters in this thread--parts of the world being created in response to the PCs, rather than existing "independently" of them.

Things are created in order to make the things the players look into interesting.
Well, for the record, I disagree with anyone claiming that every single part of the entire world must be fleshed out in detail prior to play starting. I haven't seen anyone claiming that and, given that no one has a gameworld with millions of independently statted NPCs, updated daily for worldwide births and deaths, I doubt anyone is actually doing that. I would go so far as to suggest that if you took that to be the claim, maybe the post that gave that impression is worth a second read for a less extreme interpretation?

If someone did make that claim at some point in the thread, they don't seem to be still arguing it, so maybe drop that tangent?
 

This is wrong. The players move plenty in a sandbox. Take the party of PCs going north to make one of their own the chief of the north. That very much moves the sand around and changes how things are done for not only the north, but very probably the entire world. Forging the tribes into one strong nation puts those barbarians on the map in a very different way.
No sand is literally moved. What happens - literally - is that everyone at the table agrees to imagine <this> rather than <that>.
 

To respond to @Hussar ’s request not too far back for folks to share their ideas of sandbox prep… I’m about to run session two of a Blades in the Dark campaign tomorrow night. We had a session zero which consisted of crew and character creation, and then did our first Score and Downtime in session one last week.

So far, everything in play that has come up has been based on player choice. When you create your crew in Blades, you pick certain qualities that will shape play. One of these is Reputation. This is how other factions view yours. We went with “Daring”. Another thing you pick is your Hinting Grounds… this is the part of the city where the Crew does a lot of their work. We chose the district of Brightstone, specifically Bowmore Bridge. Brightstone is the most affluent district in the city, home to the wealthy and influential. Bowmore Bridge connects Brightstone to Whitecrown, which is the district of the government leaders and their homes and/or fortresses. Bowmore Bridge has residences and businesses built on top of it, and this is where our Crew wants to operate.

We chose Bravos as our Crew type, which is essentially hired muscle or mercenaries. Several of the characters are of marginalized groups of one sort or another, so that was the primary reason to target the wealthiest district in the city. So I asked the players what they wanted to do for their first Score. They wanted to do something Daring and they wanted to do it on Bowmore Bridge to send a message. One of the players looked at the Claim map on the Crew sheet… these are locations/situations you can target and use to grow your criminal organization. Each one also grants your Crew some benefit. One of the Claims was “Terrorized Citizens”. That seemed appropriate to everyone… so we started talking about what such a Score would look like. One of the job types listed for Bravos is “Smash and Grab”.

The Crew then went about Gathering Information. First, we learned of a jeweler who fashions his pieces from the bones of demons. These are very popular among the elite of the city. The Crew decided he would be a good target. Another Gather Info move to determine his defenses revealed that due to the high presence of Bluecoat (police) patrols in the area, he doesn’t need as much defense as one may think. He has two bodyguards, swordsmen who are members of the Red Sashes, a gang based out of a school for swordsmanship. However, these two guards are not particularly capable… it was deemed an easy job and so went to newer members. Finally, a last gather information roll to determine any other ways into the building revealed an entrance under the bridge, and a staircase down to a small dock on the river. This info was paired with the fact that the jeweler was also handling human trafficking in the lower portion of his shop.

That was the basis for our first Score. Generated entirely as a group, within the sandbox that is Doskvol, the setting for Blades.
 

I think what the actual problem here is that you (and some others) think there is only one way to play D&D.
Well, one actual problem is that people keep telling me what I think, rather than reading what I post, and/or asking me what I think.

Where have I posted that there is only one way to play D&D? I mean, I've posted in this very thread about at least three different approaches: classic Gygaxian dungon-crawling; DL/AP-esque "storytelling" play; and 4e scene-framed play.

In the D&D game I'm in, we rarely have combat--maybe once every 4-8 sessions. The rest of the time is mostly RP, and a lot of that is "very low stake." We had an session that took place almost entirely at a bardic performance--and that was player choice, since it was the player who sought the performance out. Likewise, in my Level Up game, one player, who was new to the city the game has thus far taken place in, decided she wanted to get an apartment. And thus she and another player or two--and I, the GM--went apartment-hunting.

Heck, I once ran a heavily-modified Curse of Strahd (I didn't like the actual presented adventure) and we spent the better part of a session once having tea. There was an attack by ghouls later on, but the session itself? Tea time.
Yes, I'm aware that some people use D&D PCs and (some parts of the) D&D rules to support this sort of play.

I'm sure that there are going to be chunks of violence or higher-stakes events in BW--that "The Sword" scenario proves that. (And, of course, that entire scenario is GM-driven, since the PCs are plunked down right in front of a quest object).
Well, then you're wrong about the violence. In the campaign where I play Thurgon - a knight of a holy military order - there have been (from memory) two fights. Thurgon fought some Orcs; and he fought a demon.

As I think I posted, one of the more intense moments was his attempt to persuade Aramina - his travelling companion - to mend his armour. And of course his reunions with his brother Rufus and mother Xanthippe, about which I have posted in this thread.

Burning Wheel is about conflict - rising action, climax, resolution - not particularly about violence.

Now, I'm assuming that when you mean "pre-authored fiction" re: determining if an action fails or succeed, you mean things like target numbers, because that's literally the only thing I can think of.
No. I mean things like this guard can't be bribed or there are no secret entrances into this building or the attack on the town will happen on <insert date here>. The sorts of things that are written in GM's notes.

I had been expecting something like "the PC chooses either failure or success with major consequence,"
This is anathema to Burning Wheel. You seem to be thinking of Fate, or similar RPGs that allow players to engage in a high degree of curation of character arcs.

You write "The GM does not need to decide if an action's success is uncertain - rather, the rules dictate that it is uncertain *if something that matters to the PC as authored by the player is at stake;"

I mean, that's literally how most games work, including D&D--again, the DMG even addresses this; some GMs have players roll for everything, some have them only roll during dramatic occasions like combat and leave everything else up to the players to RP out, and most GMs do something in the middle. It's just that D&D presents it as a choice for the GM to make, not as the game's rule.
See how, in your second paragraph, you say "some GMs have players roll . . ." That's already a difference from BW.

And there is nothing in any 5e D&D rulebook I'm aware of that identifies player-determined stakes as the trigger for rendering something uncertain. The rules in D&D Beyond, that I already quoted upthread, treat uncertainty as an input into the question of whether or not to roll, not an output of that decision (which must therefore be made on other grounds):

The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.​

This is the exact opposite of Burning Wheel, not "literally how [it] works".

The game even seems to goes so far as to have the GM decide what the PC should be thinking. While doing a search for how to do tests in BW, I came across this question on the Burning Wheel forum:



From what I can tell, with a failed Steel check, the PC simply stops what they're doing--they may run away or stand their being horrified or whatever, but they're not going to continue their murder attempt. OK, sure, lots of games have fright checks or sanity checks, but those are nearly always done because of something supernatural (except in horror games, where merely seeing horrible yet mundane things can call for one). But with BW, it certainly seems as though the GM can arbitrarily decide that that emotionally, this NPC is harder for me to kill than that one.
The decision to call for a Steel test is not arbitrary. The rules state when the GM may call for a Steel test, including the starting point of "say 'yes' or roll the dice".

I may call for a fright or sanity check (depending on game), but only after doing the deed.
OK? I'm not sure what this tells me about Burning Wheel, other than that you haven't arrived at a similar set of procedures in your play of other RPGs.

I guess its because I've been familiar with player-facing morale checks in Classic Traveller (1977) since I first read the game in the late 1970s that I don't find Steel checks particularly shocking as a mechanics.

Here an example, in play, of a Steel test:
With the morning mist rolling in, it was time to clean out the innkeeper's cash box. We agreed that the day's takings would be 2D of cash. With successful checks, Alicia cast Cat's Eye so she could see in the dark; I succeeded at a straightforward Scavenging check so that Aedhros could find a burning brand (he can see in dim light or by starlight, but not in dark when the stars are obscured by mist). Alicia went first, in the dark but able to see, but failed an untrained Stealthy check despite a penalty to the innkeeper's Perception check for being asleep. So as she opened the door to the room where was sleeping on his feather-and-wool-stuffed mattress, he woke and stood up, moving his strongbox behind him. Alicia, being determined - as per one of her Beliefs - to meet any wrong to her with double in return, decided to tackle him physically. Of course she is trained in Martial Arts, as that's a favourite of her player! I proposed and he agreed that we resolve this via Bloody Versus (ie simple opposed checks) rather than fully scripting in Fight! I set the innkeeper's Brawling at 3, but he had significant penalties due to darkness, and so Alica - with 4 dice + 1 bonus die for superior Reflexes - won the fight easily. The injury inflicted was only superficial, but (as per the rules for Bloody Versus) Alicia had the innkeeper at her mercy - as we narrated it, thrown to the ground and held in a lock.

Aedhros entered the room at this point, with Heart-seeker drawn and ready for it to live up to its name. But Alicia thought that killing the innkeeper was a bit much. So first, she used her advantageous position to render the innkeeper unconscious (no check required, given the outcome of the Bloody Versus). Then her player, wearing the GM hat, insisted that I make a Steel check to commit cold-blooded murder. This failed, and so I hesitated for 4 actions. Handily, that is the casting time for Persuasion, and so Alicia "told" Aedhros not to kill the innkeeper. The casting check succeeded, but the Tax check was one success against an obstacle of 4. With only 1 Forte left, that was 3 Tax which would be 2 overtax, or an 8-point wound, which would be Traumatic for Alicia. But! - the Tax check also was the final check needed for her Forte 3 to step up to Forte 4 (wizard's get lots of juicy Forte checks because of all their Tax - in this case from the three spells cast), which made the overtax only 1, or a 4-point wound which was merely Superficial. Still, she collapsed unconscious.

Aedhros opened the strongbox and took the cash. We agreed that no check was required; and given his Belief that he can tolerate Alicia's company only because she's broken and poor, and given that it aggravates his Spite to suffer her incompetence in fainting, he kept all the money for himself. He then carried out the unconscious Alicia (again, no check required). He also took the innkeeper's boots, being sick of going about barefoot. But he will continue to wear his tattered clothes.
The framework for Steel tests establishes a premise for the game: violence and murder are not undemanding things for a person to engage in or witness.

In the same way that, in classic versions of D&D, dungeon doors are not trivial to go through, requiring a roll to open doors; so, in BW, murderous violence is not trivial to go through - the GM can call for a Steel test to see if the character hesitates.
 

And yet, despite my last post, here I am again.
I got you covered on this.

My point wasn't that it has to be as realized as the real world. My point was that if the GM is placing three or four points of interest...and those are the only meaningful places to go, with everything else being mostly pointless dithering...then there isn't really that much in the way of agency. The GM is still making you go various places.

If there are literally only three four things the PCs can do, you don't have a sandbox by any definition I'm aware of. Certainly not the type that people like @Bedrockgames or @robertsconley are talking about.

Having three or four things is not quite how folks who have been running sandbox campaigns have been doing things for the past couple of decades. That issue has long been covered by a bunch of folks, including myself.
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For example Blackmarsh (free download)
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Or my upcoming Majestic Fantasy Realms.
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In fact in a recent the players were on their way to the Forsaken Desert to investigate rumors of Dark Elves. As they made their way through the Golden Pass after arriving as Visby they encountered rumors while roleplaying with NPCs about the following.

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  • A thieves guild known as the Raven's Mark's that may or may not be a rebel group seeking to liberate the former kingdom of Vasa from the Grand Kingdom who conquered it 70 years ago.
  • A conflict between loggers and the druids of Greenelm Forest, with a detachment of the Royal Rangers involved.
  • Then, only to discover while staying overnight in Hawksleigh that the Winter Court (faeries) were involved in escalating the conflict.
  • Learning about hill giants accosting a caravan travelling over the Golden Pass and forced to pay Yonk's tribute.
All this was supposed to be a quick two-day journey over the pass to Castle Westguard to provision and pick up information about the Forsaken Desert.

The party had a long in-game discussion about all this information the morning they left Hawksleigh. They were interested, but they were more interested in the Dark Elves. Ultimately, they decided no to the Raven's Mark and no to the Greenelm conflict. But since they were on their way, they stopped at Gold Keep to see what they could do to help with the Hill Giant situation. They figured they would find the cave, kill a bunch of giants, and loot their treasure.

However, as I related before, the situation was a bit more than that.

And it was done with the help of this.
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I also included a bunch of additional notes fleshing out the route when the players told me their characters were taking a ship from Northport to Visby two weeks prior. Sandbox referees and those who published material to support the sandbox campaign, like myself, have long recognized the challenges of running this campaign style and worked hard to come up with a variety of ways to help referees when they want to run this type of campaign. Ranging from Robbin's West March to my own Living World take, to all the others.



.and those are the only meaningful places to go, with everything else being mostly pointless dithering.

Now, when I say players can 'trash the setting,' I don’t mean it as a joke, even if it often gets a laugh. It’s shorthand for something fundamental to sandbox campaigns: the world must be robust enough that the players, through their characters, can challenge, reshape, or outright ruin parts of it without breaking the game. That kind of freedom only works if the world reacts consistently and isn’t focused on protecting some other type of creative goal, like narrative arcs or control of the shared fiction.

In closing, framing responses around emotional resonance or suggesting that certain playstyles are inherently “antagonistic” to specific feelings doesn’t help clarify differences, it risks delegitimizing the preferences of others. If we want to compare styles seriously, we need to focus on structure, goals, and outcomes, not assume that those who play differently are aiming for the same effects or violating shared principles.
 

Do you feel that's the same as the world only being determined because the players are playing?
I have yet to see daylight between them.

I mean that one seems a bit of an impossible standard if so, because no GM ever is going to determine the traits of every possible location a PC could reach. I doubt they could usually even do that within one town in most cases.
Yes...I literally said that a ways upthread, with an example of how (for example) having a merchant with fancy clothes implies a whole bunch of things about tailoring shops and their employees, expecting that essentially no DM (sandbox or otherwise) would have already prepared a list of the employees' names, let alone enough detail for them to be meaningfully active apart from player attention.

In other words, all the pixels poured out about a world that exists "independently" and "objectively" has rung quite hollow when, with either approach, detail only happens because players express interest.
 

So I think this is an interesting comment. My take on it is that, with heavily prepped games, the GM is very often reacting to their own creations. Yes, they are including some input from the players… but it’s limited to the actions of their characters. Which are also limited by the GM’s creations.

The game world is a construct, almost entirely of the GM. They then use that as a starting point. They extrapolate from there. That’s a lot of authority over what play will be about.
there is a lot of authority, I don’t think anyone is disputing that. The dispute is about whether it allows for meaningful input / control by the players or not.

A DM can absolutely railroad a game that way, but that is a choice, not the logical consequence
 

In closing, framing responses around emotional resonance or suggesting that certain playstyles are inherently “antagonistic” to specific feelings doesn’t help clarify differences, it risks delegitimizing the preferences of others. If we want to compare styles seriously, we need to focus on structure, goals, and outcomes, not assume that those who play differently are aiming for the same effects or violating shared principles.
Then it would be nice if folks on "your side" of this particular discussion would stop doing that to styles you aren't advocating for.
 

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