D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

I am not 100% sure I follow, but this sounds much more deliberate than what happens in my games. My games are definitely built around grudges and conflict, but this sounds like you are going in a different direction

It's what the emphasis is on. You and @robertsconley play in a similar structural fashion to me but the emphasis for you guys is more on the adventure (and presumably uncovering mysteries and how they're solved). So all that thematic stuff happens and is probably essential to good play but it's not necessarily the focus of play.

If you looked at how I rewrote Roberts scenario you'll see I got rid of the bandits. The bandits are great as part of an adventure scenario because they're using wolves clothing and it creates a red herring. For my style of play they're dead weight because they don't have a meaningful point of view I care about.

Or another way of looking at it using Robert's scenario as written.


The party (including my player character) rocks up to Kensla. Anselm tells us what's going down and I say 'yeah you're wrong about the Goshawks. Mahon is a coward and Mitre is punishing you. Demand he immediately step down and a new Baron by raised up in his place. One blessed by Mitre and not the pretender horselords.'

Am I being disruptive? Yeah yeah I know anyone can do anything, it's a sandbox but there are often unspoken mores in play. If the rest of the party goes off without me while I try and foment revolt is that a problem? If I then conspire to murder them because although they're my brothers in arms, it's more important that we resist the overlord, is that met with the group high fiving over hard moral choices or weary sighs as I PvP.

As a GM how open is Anselm to all this. Do you try and brush me off to get back to solving the mystery or is this the kind of stuff you came here to see?


I guess my broader point is that we can use the same system and the same scenario but the groups mutual purpose for play determines how all that stuff gets applied. Which is obvious but I wanted to illustrate it.


also @robertsconley the second part of the supplement looks pretty cool, I can see how the extra npc's could add a load of far more personal stakes.
 

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There's nothing wrong with some exposition and interaction with low stakes. Narrativist games even directly invoke this sort of play. Stonetop literally has a move which describes it. So does TB2e IIRC. However, at a certain point it starts to detract from play, and IME that usually happens pretty soon! If people are literally preferring to spend entire sessions chatting without any stakes at all it makes me wonder about how engaging play actually is!
The bolded can sometimes be highly engaging in itself and as such can go on for quite some time.

Like anythng else, though, it too can of course be overdone.
 

"Roll a d6. On a 4+, the player dictates what happens next; on a 3-, the DM does." is a fully comprehensive rule set.
Who or what determines what triggers or causes the d6 to be rolled?
Rules don't need to dictate outcomes, they only need to dictate the exchange of authority to make statements.
And are those statements bound by any further rules (other than basic genre conceits)?
 

I think that what's happening in play as described is the GM has crafted a setting for the players to interact with.
I find the language of "interaction with the setting" tends to obscure what is going on.

The players interact with the GM. By saying things. Perhaps also pointing to things - eg "We go <here> on the map."

The GM interacts with the players by saying things, showing them maps, showing them pictures, etc.

The setting tends to used, somewhat indifferently, to refer to two things that are related but not identical:

(A) An abstract object - namely, some collection of descriptions, ideas, etc that collectively constitute an imaginary world (eg all the ideas that JRRT came up with that, taken collectively, constitute Middle Earth);

(B) A collection of more concrete things - writings, pictures, beliefs/thoughts in the GM's head - that, collectively, (i) encode/express bits of (A), and (ii) serve as cues or aides memoire or resources for the GM to make decisions in the course of play​

When we talk about the players interacting with the setting, what we mean - I think - is something like:

* The players have some beliefs/thoughts that encode bits of (A) - stuff the GM told them, stuff they read from the blurb on the back of a book, stuff they've picked up from their own more intensive reading and/or listening, etc.

* Using those beliefs and thoughts to help inform their sense of fictional position, the players declare actions for their PCs.

* The GM, drawing on (B) above, makes a decision about what happens next - or decides to disclaim decision-making to some extent, and makes a dice roll of some sort or calls for a player to make a roll of some sort.

* The GM relays some of that decision to the players - not necessarily all of it, as the GM may make decisions that add to or change (B), which the GM doesn't share with the players (consider, eg, the example where, by charming a NPC in a tavern, the PCs bring it about that the duke is not protected from assassination).​

It could probably be unpacked a bit more, but I think what I've said gets at the general gist of it.

As for whether authority and control are established fact, I think in many... likely even most... cases, they are.
I disagree a bit about how much authority you have as a player in D&D. You likely have a little bit over the world (assuming some amount of GM leeway) in the form of backstory or details about your character... NPC friends and families and the like.

You likely don't have 100% authority over your character in the sense that you are bound by the constraints placed on you during play. You can't necessarily "go anywhere" since the GM can block your means in any number of ways. Want to travel to the north port? Oh, sorry... weather prevents it. Want to enter the southern kingdom? Oh sorry a magical barrier created by the god of thwarting surrounds the kingdom. And so on.

This is why I think the amount of GM authority matters quite a bit... it impacts play quite a bit. It determines what is available and what the players are allowed to do.
In my more recent posts, I've been distinguishing authority and control, using chess and bridge as my examples.

In chess, a player always has authority to move their pieces. But the rules of the game and the position of the board constrain and guide how they can exercise that authority. And the way that a player wins a game of chess is to make their own moves so as to exercise control - increasing control, as they proceed towards victory - over the position and the "possibility space", constraining and guiding the other player's exercise of their authority, until there are no options open to the other player.

The losing player does not forfeit their authority over their pieces on the board. But they do lose control of the game.

Bridge is the same. Players (other than the dummy) have authority over the play of their guards. But their are rules that govern them - the most important being the requirement to follow suit. And the skill of playing bridge is to use your authority so as to control - constrain, and guide - the way that other players use their authority (eg by exploiting strength and length to run other players out of trumps, and then win further tricks in off suit).

We can analyse RPG play in much the same way.

For instance, consider a simple example I gave upthread, which could be part of dungeoncrawl play:

GM: you're standing at one end of a hall.

Player: I walk down the hall.

GM: You fall down a pit trap.​

Here, we have the GM referring to their map-anbd-key to tell the player what the PC sees; the player declares their PC's action; the GM refers to their map-and-key to determine the consequence.

The player (or perhaps another player who has a PC who has seen what happened) now has more information, and so can do things like the following:

Player: I lay a board across the pit, and cross the pit on the board.​

Now the GM is constrained, by the logic of the new fiction the player has created. The GM is obliged to agree that, in the fiction, the PC has got to the other side of the pit safely.

And perhaps the player goes on:

As I walk down the hall, I prod in front of me with a sturdy wooden pole.​

Now, the GM is obliged - by reference to their map-and-key - to narrate the PC triggering pit traps by use of the pole. Thus providing the player with information, which allows the player to declare more actions like laying down boards, moving around the edge of revealed pits, or whatever.

In addition to the precise analysis, the other thing I'm trying to get at is that the player can exercise control over the shared fiction without having to enjoy authority over it. Just like a chess or bridge player, they can make moves that constrain and guide the moves open to other participants, by exploiting rules and position (in the examples I've given, the rules include things like the GM is bound by their map-and-key and everyone agrees that common-sense logic for dealing with pit traps will work).

The less bound the GM is, and the more baroque the rules and the position, then the harder it becomes for the players to exercise control. The example of the NPC whose role is such that if the players charm her as she hangs out in the tavern, the duke will be assassinated, is in my view a pretty baroque position that relies on very permissive rules about what the GM can extrapolate to. Likewise, I would say, the example of guards not being able to be bribed because of their periodic interrogation under a Zone of Truth spell.
 

It's pretty hard to be involved in the OSR online space and miss the Principia. It's pretty much Matt Finch's primer 2.0, and directly influenced a lot of the more popular NSR works like Knave and Cairn.


Like I said, me not knowing it doesn't really mean much. But it looks like it is an OSR primer with an eye towards Apocalypse World. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But that definitely seems at least like it would have very different types of priorities than the OSR stuff I mentioned. But again, nothing I saw in those principles contradicted what I said, which was information was supposed to be given based on what they would know and gained largely through interaction with the world
 

It's what the emphasis is on. You and @robertsconley play in a similar structural fashion to me but the emphasis for you guys is more on the adventure (and presumably uncovering mysteries and how they're solved). So all that thematic stuff happens and is probably essential to good play but it's not necessarily the focus of play.

Cool.

To be clear my emphasis is not on adventure. Most of my campaigns are about conflict in the martial world. I usually include plenty of sites that could serve that role if the players are interested but most are actually lived in structures that are dynamic and part of a sect because the main focus is really sect conflict in my games. I've mentioned Killer Clans which people may or may not have seen, but think sandbox campaign based on 70s shaw brothers martial arts movies where you have funding sects and martial heroes all carrying different grudges. The campaigns look more like The Godfather than Lord of the Rings (to take examples people might be more familiar with).

This kind of campaign doesn't exclude things like dungeons through. But even those will usually involve other actors (so it wouldn't be uncommon if the players do go on a search for say a manual hidden in a tomb somewhere for there to be rivals also searching for the manual------and plenty of groups would just hire a mercenary to get it for them).
 

Have you actively said there's only one way to play D&D? No
So I'd be grateful, then, if you stopped stating and/or implying that I have.

I can read what you write. "the priorities can pertain to matters beyond adventuring and looting and solving problems and mysteries, and so the stakes of situations can be very personal, or low stakes from the point of view of other people in the setting. For instance, a scene in which one character tries to persuade another to mend his dented armour can have as much heft in play a a scene in which the two characters fight for their lives against some Orcs."

So what, exactly, does this mean? Because it certainly sounds like you're saying "D&D primarily focuses on adventuring, looting, solving problems, and mysteries, and in contrast, BW doesn't and (therefore) has more personal stakes."
Yes, I am. Not unlike this post of yours (I've bolded what's salient):
you (and some others) think there is only one way to play D&D. Go on adventures, kill monsters, take their stuff. And while that is probably the most common way, it's certainly not the only way.

Did you actually mean to say "both D&D and BW can focus on low stakes play; I just prefer using BW to do so"?
No I didn't, because, BW never focuses on low-stake play. If the play of BW focuses on the issue of whether one character can persuade another to mend their armour, that is because it is high stakes. For instance, there is something at stake that concerns the relationship between the two characters.

Things like this don't require a particular system. They require that the players be interested in this sort of roleplay.
As the BW rulebook says (p 72), "There is no social agreement for the resolution of conflict in this game. Roll the dice and let the obstacle system guide the outcome." If that is what one is looking for - RPGing without social agreement between the participants for the resolution of conflict, then a system is needed. Because the sort of RPGing you are talking about is precisely the social agreement that BW eschews.

Is the GM allowed to call for a Steel test if a player wants to kill someone?

<snip>

because player 1 decided, what, that's not what player 2's character would do?

<snip>

I don't like that.

<snip>

I can't believe you think requiring a test of physical strength as being the same thing as forcing a player to play their PC in a specific way because the game has decided that violence should be shocking.
A Steel test is governed by the same rules as any other test - it is made when something is at stake, and when the task is one requiring nerves. In the example of play I posted, something was at stake - Aedhros was getting his revenge on the innkeeper - and it required nerves, being cold-blooded murder.

As I posted in reply to @mamba, the game rules have two or three pages describing the sorts of actions that the game deems require nerves. This is nothing to do with what a character would or wouldn't do - the game expressly denies that we can know whether or not a given person has the requisite nerves until the Steel test is resolved.

Obviously it's not the same thing as testing to go through doors - thematically, they are completely different, and they feed into different dynamics of play. But the structure is the same - certain action declarations can be "gated" behind a check. In classic D&D, the point of it (at least in part) is to make opening, and going through, dungeon doors matter. In BW, the point of it (at least in part) is to make the decision to, right here and now, try and murder someone, matter.

In classic D&D, if I want my PC to be reliable at opening doors, I can choose to play a fighter and give them a high STR (by putting my best roll in there, if playing AD&D; or by pumping my STR, if playing Moldvay Basic; there's some uncertainty over exactly how stat pumping works in the original rulebooks). In BW, if I want my PC to be a reliable murderer with nerves of steel, then when building my PC I can make the choices that will raise my Steel and reduce my hesitation.

But Aedhros is not an assassin (yet, at least). He was an ordinary Elf, who turned down the path of spite (like Eol in the Silmarillion) after his spouse was killed.
 

The Principa Apocrypha and the designs that align with it like Old School Essentials, The Nightmares Underneath, Knave and Dolmenwood represent the strain of OSR thought that starts with Moldvay's B/X edit (with its explicit procedures and approaching the game as a game) as a jumping off point rather than AD&D's more Gygaxian influences.

It's about fair challenges (ala Blorb Principles) and cutting away the cruft.
 

The Principa Apocrypha and the designs that align with it like Old School Essentials, The Nightmares Underneath, Knave and Dolmenwood represent the strain of OSR thought that starts with Moldvay's B/X edit (with its explicit procedures and approaching the game as a game) as a jumping off point rather than AD&D's more Gygaxian influences.

It's about fair challenges (ala Blorb Principles) and cutting away the cruft.

I have played OSE and Moldvay I like. But never heard of this one before
 

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