D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[TwoSix]

I understand where you're coming from, but that attitude to me feels like saying your preferences are more important than mine in some objective sense. I don't go around imagining that you only like Narrativist play because you haven't played enough classic or traditional.

It's nothing to do with my preferences. It's the fact that classic play and trad play are far older and have more adherents and people who learned to play in those paradigms than narrative play. There's just a fundamental asymmetry there.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think anyone is wrong about what they would prefer, but I do think people who lack experience say some pretty phenomenal wild things about modes of play that do not have much experience with. I think often what we see is that a lot of folks experience games like Apocalypse World for the first time in the hands of MCs who are not really taking the text seriously or who assume too much skill transfer. Then they are comparing novice level play and GMing to decades of experience running and playing in a way that they are used to. They are not comparing it to what it felt like to first fumble through D&D.

Now I don't think anyone needs to spend years acquiring the skills I have acquired running Apocalypse World but I would ask them to think about it in terms of a craft one gets much better with over time.

That there is also a very big difference between extended play and 1-2 shot vacation games.

I suspect for some it simply isn't worth spending a bunch of time to get good at a playstyle you're not necessarily excited about anyway.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I know I definitely don't want my players (whether I'm one or not) to have more agency then their PC would have in the setting, once play begins. It actively damages my enjoyment.

What about information that the characters could conceivably have, if the GM chooses to share it?

My feelings about PCs being subject to rules that can control their behavior is complicated. It's not the way I grew up playing and feel good about, but you're right in that there are times it is more realistic. I suppose I'm open to different ways to handle the situation, but it would need to be reviewed on a case by case basis.

Oh, I don't think this stuff belongs in every game. It really depends on the point of play and the genre and so on.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's nothing to do with my preferences. It's the fact that classic play and trad play are far older and have more adherents and people who learned to play in those paradigms than narrative play. There's just a fundamental asymmetry there.

That doesn't make either mode more valid, so I don't see a good reason to treat them differently. Like I said, if someone tells me they don't like something, I might ask them why, but I will believe them, and I won't suggest their feelings are due to ignorance.

 

[Campbell]

I suspect for some it simply isn't worth spending a bunch of time to get good at a playstyle you're not necessarily excited about anyway.

Absolutely. I still think it's important that when we talk about how play functions, we can keep in mind the impact of experience and try to be mindful about how we are depicting things.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Right. That is the core gameplay loop for D&D and most conventional RPGs. It's not for a number of games. Including fairly conventional ones like Vampire - The Masquerade, Most 2d20 games, Legend of the Five Rings (Fifth Edition) or Pendragon. It certainly is not the gameplay loop for Apocalypse World.

I've come to believe, after a lot of discussion and reading about other systems, that I really don't want anything other than the traditional core gameplay loop in my RPGs. Doing that part differently just isn't fun for me. It would take a very distracting subject matter to keep me from being bothered by that. The only game I've seen that feels like it might do the trick is Star Trek Adventures.

 

[TwoSix]

That doesn't make either mode more valid, so I don't see a good reason to treat them differently. Like I said, if someone tells me they don't like something, I might ask them why, but I will believe them, and I won't suggest their feelings are due to ignorance.

There's nothing to do here with validity.

It's reasonable to have the expectation that your median gamer has little knowledge of how narrative games work.

It's reasonable to have the expectation that your median gamer has a decent knowledge of how trad games work.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What about information that the characters could conceivably have, if the GM chooses to share it?



Oh, I don't think this stuff belongs in every game. It really depends on the point of play and the genre and so on.

If you think it makes setting logical-sense to have that info, and I didn't immediately provide it, make your case. I can be persuaded.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There's nothing to do here with validity.

It's reasonable to have the expectation that your median gamer has little knowledge of how narrative games work.

It's reasonable to have the expectation that your median gamer has a decent knowledge of how trad games work.

Not if that means you treat every trad gamer as someone who hasn't realized they actually like narrative games.

 

[AlViking]

The stimulus is external. But the mental state is internal. You're letting the system, rather than the player, dictate how the character responds.

In this case it's not about realism. It's about the core gameplay loop; the players describe their characters actions, the GM describes how the world responds.

In addition, adventurers are a different breed. They seek out danger and glory, when they hear people screaming and running in terror they're the ones that run towards the source of the terror. Occasionally players will decide to roll a reaction check for themselves because they're not sure how they would react.

Is it realistic? Some people put their lives on the line every day. Someone has to be the first person to charge the front lines in a battle. Even if it's not realistic, if there should be a chance that my character would be shaking in their boots, so what? It's fantasy and wish fulfillment. My character is a protagonist in an action movie, not an unnamed extra.