Pathfinder 1E Are people still playing Pathfinder 1e?

[Thomas Shey]

Idk, for my group we don't stop because "it's broken" but rather at that high of level it's just kind of ridiculous to play characters anywhere other than in other planes fighting planar threats (which is cool and fun and we have done it). Its the same reason Gary stopped at the low teens, not for fear that AD&D 1e didn't work, but because that was no longer considered adventuring to him and his.

As with everything in D&D, just beacuse it is there doesn't mean it makes sense for different groups and campaigns.

Over and above the issues of power creep and alpha striking (which doesn't require a lot of mini-maxing at those levels to drop into), the big problem around the low teens with 3e is that keeping track of a lot of opponents is really tedious because their specs are so busy.

 

[Thomas Shey]

A larger percentage of players than I'd like, love to be the best and most powerful. Modern video games reinforce this. It's not that they want to break the system. They just want to be the best, most powerful, most knowledgeable skill monkey, whatever. It's a human thing. Happens at work and in all human relations. For groups with those people 3.0 SUCKS. Far worse than other versions.

Its not like when generating fantasy heroes that being good at what you do isn't a fairly natural tendency, so even those who are not hardcore optimize-until-you-scream types can easily drift in that direction with no malign intent.

 

[earthsea_wizard]

Over and above the issues of power creep and alpha striking (which doesn't require a lot of mini-maxing at those levels to drop into), the big problem around the low teens with 3e is that keeping track of a lot of opponents is really tedious because their specs are so busy.

For sure it can be cumbersome but when you've been doing it for long enough (25 years for some people, not that it takes this long to get good at), it becomes more intuitive, you know a lot of what you're glancing at by heart, you have your own methods of organization etc. Teens and beyond (which can take years to get to anyways) can be cumbersome to an extent, it is indeed a less than ideal facet of this system, but one of the tradeoffs I'm willing to make, and every edition has tradeoffs. The issue you speak of is mostly due to what is also a positive of the system- it is deep and customizable and enemies use the same system as PCs, these are positives to me.

One thing that doens't seem to happen anymore is a group people a system that works for them and sticking with it for years, decades even, and morphing it into their own thing and becoming initimately familiar with it. Its all about hopping from system to system, one shots, short campaigns, flavor of the week etc. When you spend as much time as some of the people in this thread on a system like 3e and its derivatives the perceived negatives start to either fade into the background or in some cases become seen as positives even.

But again, not everyone cares about high level play, and to me that isn't a bug or a feature, it is just a playstyle choice that has been around since the 1970s.

 

[earthsea_wizard]

Its not like when generating fantasy heroes that being good at what you do isn't a fairly natural tendency, so even those who are not hardcore optimize-until-you-scream types can easily drift in that direction with no malign intent.

But DMs should be watching this and commenting if it isn't what they want in their game. And again, play with people who you know well and who will respect the basic boundaries you set for your campaign (one of which should include not taking it personally when a DM asks that you don't take certain options). This is a relationship that has been lost over the years.

 

[Thomas Shey]

For sure it can be cumbersome but when you've been doing it for long enough (25 years for some people, not that it takes this long to get good at), it becomes more intuitive, you know a lot of what you're glancing at by heart, you have your own methods of organization etc. Teens and beyond (which can take years to get to anyways) can be cumbersome to an extent, it is indeed a less than ideal facet of this system, but one of the tradeoffs I'm willing to make, and every edition has tradeoffs. The issue you speak of is mostly due to what is also a positive of the system- it is deep and customizable and enemies use the same system as PCs, these are positives to me.

I tell you the truth; I think you have to like other elements of 3e a whole lot to last long enough to build up that kind of second-nature reaction to the things I'm talking about. I accept its possible for at least some people to get over that hill, but I'll just note its far from a small hill. It finished off my experience GMing 3e, and I'm far from intolerant to heavy-mechanics games.

One thing that doens't seem to happen anymore is a group people a system that works for them and sticking with it for years, decades even, and morphing it into their own thing and becoming initimately familiar with it. Its all about hopping from system to system, one shots, short campaigns, flavor of the week etc. When you spend as much time as some of the people in this thread on a system like 3e and its derivatives the perceived negatives start to either fade into the background or in some cases become seen as positives even.

I don't think that was ever as common as some people think; even back in the days when i had a couple of game systems people knew well and I used repeatedly, there were other games we used as need seemed.

But again, not everyone cares about high level play, and to me that isn't a bug or a feature, it is just a playstyle choice that has been around since the 1970s.

Yeah, but in older versions of D&D higher level play if it existed at all was clearly an afterthought and required really long use of the extent characters to happen. In 3e this was clearly not the intended function; it just worked out that way for a lot of people because it became progressively problematic to run the game after about 12th level. Its clearly a failure state for the system because it comes up pretty constantly as to why people bailed out of it when they did.

 

[Thomas Shey]

But DMs should be watching this and commenting if it isn't what they want in their game. And again, play with people who you know well and who will respect the basic boundaries you set for your campaign (one of which should include not taking it personally when a DM asks that you don't take certain options). This is a relationship that has been lost over the years.

I'm extremely cynical of the lines here being as clear as you seem to be suggesting they are with any commonality. Even more so that people who want to avoid using a lot of the tools present in 3e are going to be people who otherwise are interested in 3e.

And it isn't "a relationship that has been lost over the years"; its never been that common because the hobby is full of people who's interactions with their GMs and how both sides feel about power scaling is often complicated and fraught, and that was true decades ago.

 

[nevin]

Its not like when generating fantasy heroes that being good at what you do isn't a fairly natural tendency, so even those who are not hardcore optimize-until-you-scream types can easily drift in that direction with no malign intent.

True I'm mostly pointing out it's normal human behavior and some take it way too far. . I don't blame people for wanting to be awesome. Just too much awesome can be a pain, think a party of 5 Barney Stinsons. Even on player like that gets old fast if you are trying to do a group game.

 

[nevin]

But DMs should be watching this and commenting if it isn't what they want in their game. And again, play with people who you know well and who will respect the basic boundaries you set for your campaign (one of which should include not taking it personally when a DM asks that you don't take certain options). This is a relationship that has been lost over the years.

This is something the few who've never had to deal with the narcissist, or players that just push even when you draw your lines will never get. And sometimes it can be your friends, family, or coworkers just to make it even more uncomfortable. It was never lost people are the same now as they were in the way back. You've just been lucky. Enjoy it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

True I'm mostly pointing out it's normal human behavior and some take it way too far. . I don't blame people for wanting to be awesome. Just too much awesome can be a pain, think a party of 5 Barney Stinsons. Even on player like that gets old fast if you are trying to do a group game.

I'm just going to argue that's got more to do with dissonance between how capable players want their characters to be and how much the GM wants to be in a lot of cases. Not like some issues there are uncommon, and it doesn't mean either group (or multiples if some of the players are in different spots than each other with or without being in sync with the GM) is in the wrong, it just means a lot of people in this hobby aren't in exactly the perfect games relative to other participants for various reasons.

 

[nevin]

I'm just going to argue that's got more to do with dissonance between how capable players want their characters to be and how much the GM wants to be in a lot of cases. Not like some issues there are uncommon, and it doesn't mean either group (or multiples if some of the players are in different spots than each other with or without being in sync with the GM) is in the wrong, it just means a lot of people in this hobby aren't in exactly the perfect games relative to other participants for various reasons.

I'd expand that to dissonance between those how want one kind of a game vs the other. I've seen players ruin the game for each other because they weren't willing to compromise on their vision of the game they wanted. IT's not just GM's vs players. I know players who get bent out of shape if the game is anything but minmax hardcore dungeon crawl and I know players who'll simply lose focus and the entire narrative out of pure boredom if that's going to be the game. But the overall comment on dissonance is basically the problem. It's a large player base and your D&D may not be my D&D and a lot of people can't handle that so many people don't play thier way.