D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

That seems a matter of taste.

To a point. But if one does what you just talked about, its producing what's avowedly a counterfactual in the setting (i.e. elevating hit points are not supposed to be something visible to characters as such). This is in contrast with Earthdawn, where the ability to improve your damage absorption dramatically is a known consequence of a common magical Talent.

Who is reifying? My whole point is that this is a well-known rule where the player is able to make decisions relying on the rule without anyone fussing too much about how it relates to what the PC knows.

I'm disagreeing with that premise. Watch what happens anytime anyone talks about jumping off a cliff because they know they can't help but survive it (this isn't helped by the fact that one of the things elevating hit points supposedly represents should be irrelevant there, but its not)

And hence I'm puzzled why the issue of PC uncertainty gets trotted out for other domains of decision-making.

A practical consequence of it, that I have observed, is that it pushes players in D&D towards combat as a solution, precisely because that is a domain of activity where knowledge of, and control over, outcomes becomes more feasible.

I've said before that I consider most detailed RPGs underserve the mechanical support for things outside of combat. But that doesn't change my opinion that sort of decision making with what is not supposed to be an in-world element is unfortunate.
 
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I agree they're not the exact same thing, but have never had either be a problem. I'm baffled that so many people have experienced issues with either, yet continue to game. I wouldn't, because if my games were like that, the hobby just wouldn't hold much appeal for me. I've seen people talk about how, if the rules are unclear, their games (with friends even) constantly devolve into arguments. It all sounds terribly unfun, to me and I'm glad both of those trust problems have always been non-issues for me.

Without trying to be snarky, I have to suggest you've been extremely fortunate. As I said, I've seen this with people who have been friends for decades. Its not as bad these days because most of the ones I've gamed with have lost (if they ever had it) the tendency early in the hobby for people to either react hostilely to being called on bad decisions, or be unwilling to take the time to do so. But then, we rarely play games that have a huge space where GM calls need to be made in-game much, and we're not particularly coy about showing our work, either.

I can't imagine damaging a friendship over gaming, ever. I genuinely just can't (I mean, I can imagine it, like I can imagine a fantasy world, but I can't see a way in which it could feasibly happen to me in the real world).

People damage friendships over opinions about movies and ball games. And those are often a lot less personal than RPG play.

That said, anyone is of course welcome to game under whatever expectations they're comfortable with and can agree on with their group.

As I've said many times, all I'm doing is explaining how it works (and works very well) in my own group. When people talk about the issues they have, and I consider that these are problems I've literally never experienced, it feels relevant to point out that it's possible to game without those things being a problem, and why I feel I haven't experienced them.

Again, while not unfair, I think you seriously have to consider the fact you're an outlier there. And I have some good reasons to believe that's true, and not just because of my own personal gaming experience.


If someone explicitly asks me, "But how do you deal with this?" then I'll try and answer. But all I'm doing is explaining how I deal with it (or why I feel I don't need to deal with it). I'm not telling anyone they need to have the same expectations or interests or solutions, and I can't be held accountable if the solution I use is one they feel isn't going to work for them.

No, of course not. And I haven't followed individual participants in this discussion closely enough to know specifically if you've been one of them, but there's been a recurring thread of people who start waving around "Why play with people you don't trust?" in this sort of discussion, and honestly, it starts to feel disingenuous after a while, especially when they also seem to often want to conflate trust-in-intentions with trust-in-judgment. As I've noted, if I was required to trust the judgment of people I play with--or expect them to trust my judgement--every time to play, I'd never have played at all. I don't trust my own judgment all the time, why should I trust other people's?
 

I think that's a fascinating question that should be left up to the player to answer, not left up to a die roll to say whether I can or not.
OK?

Because a game that makes me roll to see if I can perform an action is not player-driven, but mechanics-driven.
This seems a non-sequitur. For instance, D&D makes me roll to see if I can perform the action of killing the Orc. But that doesn't mean that combat, in D&D, is low on player agency.

And if the GM has brought the Orc into play because the player has, expressly or implicitly, asked the GM to frame a scene involving this Orc antagonist, then the situation looks like it is probably player-driven.

I obviously have not read this game, but I'd assume that 'Rough Them Up' adjudicates an attempt to get something from someone by use of violent coercion. So presumably a 6- indicates the attempt failed to produce the desired results, or lead to undesirable consequences. It would seem to me that fiction along the lines of"you can't bring yourself to punch her in the face" would be within bounds. Again, I don't know the agenda of this game, perhaps I am wrong.

Anyway, Narrativist game design doesn't mandate something like BW Steel. DW, for example, doesn't really need that sort of mechanic, though as with your example, certain outcomes could be cast that way.
In Apocalypse World, the analogue of Steel is Acting Under Fire:

When you do something under fire, or dig in to endure fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, you do it. On a 7–9, you flinch, hesitate, or stall: the MC can offer you a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice.​

As pp 190-1 say,

You can read “under fire” to mean any kind of serious pressure at all. Call for this move whenever someone does something requiring unusual discipline, resolve, endurance or care. I often say things like “okay, roll to act under fire, and the fire is just how badly that’s going to hurt,” “…and the fire is, can you really get that close to her without her noticing?” or . . .​

Those are examples of external pressure, but the rules also contemplate internal pressure:

When you try to seduce or manipulate someone, tell them what you want and roll+hot. . . . For PCs: on a 10+, both. On a 7–9, choose 1:
• if they do it, they mark experience [the carrot]
• if they refuse, it’s acting under fire [the stick]​
What they do then is up to them.​

So it seems to me that, depending on a table's norms and what is happening in the fiction, some sorts of ruthless actions could be established as acting under fire.

That a narration of failure can include hesitating, flinching or stalling is established by the description of the move itself. And we also see it in the narration of a hard move following a missed Read a Stich roll, in the section on Moves Snowball (p 155-6):

I can make as hard and direct a move as I like. The brutes’ threat move I like for this is make a coordinated attack with a coherent objective, so here it comes.

“You’re looking out your (barred, 4th-story) window as though it were an escape route,” I say, “and they don’t chop your door all the way down, just through the top hinge, and then they lean on it to make a 6-inch space. The door’s creaking and snapping at the bottom hinge. And they put a grenade through like this - ” I hold up my fist for the grenade and slap it with my other hand, like whacking a croquet ball.

“I dive for -”

Sorry, I’m still making my hard move. This is all misdirection.

“Nope. They cooked it off and it goes off practically at your feet. Let’s see … 4-harm area messy, a grenade. You have armor?”​

(Note that "misdirection" here is a technical term (pp 110-11): it refers to the GM "pretend[ing] that you’re making your move for reasons entirely within the game’s fiction" even though "the real reason why you choose a move exists in the real world. Somebody has her character go someplace new, somebody misses a roll, somebody hits a roll that calls for you to answer, everybody’s looking to you to say something, so you choose a move to make.)
 

You said you wanted the DM to tell the player whether using it was worthwhile or not,
Nnnnnnope! I said I want more information than absolutely jack-all which is what Lanefan had said the player would know. (I am fairly confident I remember them saying that their players are essentially never told any numerical information if it can be avoided.)

and defined worthwhile as working earlier in the post, because failure was worthless.
"Working" would be "having at least a reasonable minimum of information to have a good chance of choosing wisely in most cases, even if a (lesser) chance of choosing unwisely remains." I then explicitly listed multiple possible ways the DM could do that, and amended them in a later post to address the (IMO excessive and kinda ridiculous) "you cannot ever tell the player anything about what their character might be thinking or feeling for any reason" criticism.

Did you read the examples I gave? Not one of them had any content that looked even remotely like "That will definitely work"/"That will definitely not work." All of them left some variable degree of saying that it could work, but that failure was still an option.

And because folks have been so persnickety about myself or others who agree with me ascribing extreme positions to them: you literally just did that. You literally replaced the (IMO rather tepid) position I took with the single most extreme possible position anyone could take on the subject ("it must work every time no matter what").

I feed extremely frustrated when it's unacceptable for me to (allegedly) do a particular thing and several people get upset about it, but then when someone else does that exact same thing to me, not one person who was so bothered by "extreme" positions speaks up—and several even like the posts that do that. This makes the conversation feel fundamentally unfair and biased: my actions will be policed closely and every deviation will be called out in the strongest possible terms, but even blatant examples from the "other side" (recognizing this is a spectrum not a binary, hence quotes) will be completely ignored or even appreciated.

This feeds into the overall feeling of double standards and, being frank, hypocrisy. "Rules for thee, not for me". I doubt that is anyone's intent. But...I mean...I'm being held to a standard that others demonstrably are not. That's really frustrating.

The DM can't say worthwhile to use if it would fail, so what you asked for with that language was for it to always work.
Nnnnnnope. Again gave several, specific examples. Not one of them required what you are claiming. You may consult my previous post if you wish to confirm this. I haven't changed anything about it (not for many hours, at least.)

That doesn't seem to have been your intent, but that is the result of the DM having to tell the player whether it is worthwhile to use or not.
No, it isn't. Because, again, I explicitly allowed for a grey area.

The position given by Lanefan was zero information. Nothing whatsoever beyond "you were hit." I asked for slightly more information, and I specified examples like (making this anew, not directly quoting myself, so there might be paraphrasing)

  • "You are not sure if it would work, this is pretty dicey"
  • "It's a long shot, but it might still make the difference"
  • "You've blocked several blows in the past with this spell, this seems similar"

Etc.

This is not, in any way, demanding that the spell always work 100% of the time. It is not, in any way, equivalent to removing saving throws from spells so that they always do full damage no matter what, which is the ridiculous extreme position you ascribed to me with no actual support beyond claiming to read between the lines.
 

To a point. But if one does what you just talked about, its producing what's avowedly a counterfactual in the setting (i.e. elevating hit points are not supposed to be something visible to characters as such). This is in contrast with Earthdawn, where the ability to improve your damage absorption dramatically is a known consequence of a common magical Talent.

But wouldn’t this just be the equivalent of when the badass hero shows no signs of fear or concern that the mook can really hurt him? You see it all the time in genre fiction.

I mean, I’m not all that crazy about Hit Points… especially how inflated they’ve become… but if someone doesn’t want genre to dictate how things go, then picking D&D is a really odd choice.
 

I don't really have a horse in the great Shield debate.

However, if the idea is that there is meant to be uncertainty around whether it will deflect the blow/missile/whatever, then I think rather than relying on achieving this by way of GM information-gating, it would be better to build it into the spell effect - eg rather than +5 AC it grants +1d6 AC (maybe d4+2 would be better, though fiddlier because of the extra addition - this is a matter for play testing).
 

Without trying to be snarky, I have to suggest you've been extremely fortunate. As I said, I've seen this with people who have been friends for decades. Its not as bad these days because most of the ones I've gamed with have lost (if they ever had it) the tendency early in the hobby for people to either react hostilely to being called on bad decisions, or be unwilling to take the time to do so. But then, we rarely play games that have a huge space where GM calls need to be made in-game much, and we're not particularly coy about showing our work, either.
I don't feel it's fortune (at least, not in the main). I carefully cultivate my friends and people don't join our group unless they are vetted by an existing member.

I don't recall any real issues when we were in our early teens either. Looking back as objectively as I can, I think it's fair to say I was a bit more of an antagonistic GM (although part of that is that I was running MERP/RM, rolling on random encounter tables that include fell beasts and trolls in Mirkwood for 1st and 2nd level characters, so the game was just naturally super lethal). Some of my players would cheat a little to get their way, but we all knew it was all in good fun and not personal. Clearly, my players didn't feel I was just screwing with them, as they continued to game with me through high school and beyond, and we never fought about it.

People damage friendships over opinions about movies and ball games. And those are often a lot less personal than RPG play.
Sure, people absolutely do. I don't get it and, to be honest, I think doing so is dumb. This, also might make me an outlier, but if so, I am certainly very happy to be so.

Again, while not unfair, I think you seriously have to consider the fact you're an outlier there. And I have some good reasons to believe that's true, and not just because of my own personal gaming experience.
As mentioned, I probably am an outlier. But, if so, it's in no small part because I've made an effort to avoid pointless drama and angst in every aspect of my life.

No, of course not. And I haven't followed individual participants in this discussion closely enough to know specifically if you've been one of them, but there's been a recurring thread of people who start waving around "Why play with people you don't trust?" in this sort of discussion, and honestly, it starts to feel disingenuous after a while, especially when they also seem to often want to conflate trust-in-intentions with trust-in-judgment. As I've noted, if I was required to trust the judgment of people I play with--or expect them to trust my judgement--every time to play, I'd never have played at all. I don't trust my own judgment all the time, why should I trust other people's?
I can see how my comments would come across that way at times -- certainly without their full context, but probably also with the context in some cases.

But if so, it's only because I honestly don't see the appeal of gaming in more volatile environments, or of making them volatile environments by regularly choosing to die on some hill or another of rule interpretation or stylistic differences. I can accept that some people are willing to accept that, but I don't think I'll ever really understand why they do.
 

The most important idea I've seen in DitV (and I'm not saying it's the most important idea - just the one that has stood out to me) is to actively reveal the setting/situation in play.

Yes, very much so. The game very much relies on prep. The GM is meant to create towns that the Dogs visit, and those towns are meant to have sin taken root in various ways. The point is not about can they discover the sin… it’s about what will the Dogs do when they discover it. That’s the interesting stuff… that’s meant to be the focus of play. Why try and potentially prevent that from happening?

I think a lot of the discussion in this thread about the bribing of guards, the climbing of cliffs, etc is really about whether the GM should be actively revealing the situation, or being more coy about it.

“Don’t be coy” is one of the best bits of advice I’ve read in an RPG (Heart: The City Beneath). Just really gets to the point.

There seems to be very little benefit from withholding basic information from players. Aside from some appeal to realism, not a lot has been offered.

An interesting game mechanic that came up in my Blades in the Dark game on Monday was an ability of the Slide (a social manipulator) called “Like Looking In a Mirror”. It allows the Slide to automatically know if someone is lying to him.

It’s a potent ability and one I expect a lit of folks here would hate as a GM. But I love it… it creates such interesting moments in play. Because someone lying and getting away with it pretty much doesn’t register in play. But lying and getting caught? Well now we have an interesting situation. It creates more opportunities for play.
 

We do not have to wonder what the purpose of going to the dice is in Blades in the Dark because John Harper tells us (and it is certainly not to elide):

Blades in the Dark said:
Why We Do This

What’s the point of this shift into a mechanic, anyway? Why not just talk it out? The main reason is this: when we just talk things out, we tend to build consensus. This is usually a good thing. It helps the group bond, get on the same page, set expectations, all that stuff. But when it comes to action-adventure stories like Blades in the Dark, we don’t want consensus when the characters go into danger. We want to be surprised, or thwarted, or driven to bigger risks, or inspired to create a twist or complication. We want to raise our hands over our heads and ride the roller coaster over the drop.

When the mechanic is triggered, the group first dips into being authors for a moment as they suss out the position, the threats, and the details of the action. Then, author mode switches off and everyone becomes the audience. What will happen next? We hold our breath, lean forward in our seats, and let the dice fall.

It might be the focus of some games to rely on mechanics for things they do not want to dig into the details of, but that is not how any Narrativist design I am familiar with works at all. We create mechanics for the things we most care about, the things we do not rely on consensus for, the things we want to be tense.

If that prowl roll was supposed to elide it would not be subject to all sorts of factors that determine position and effect, all sorts of mechanics that might come into play, etc. We go to the dice because we care enough to not decide, to let the dice decide for us. And not because there is uncertainty, but because there is tension.

It is certainly true that the mechanics of some games might not tell you what they care about, but it's the furthest thing from the truth for games like Sorcerer, Apocalypse World, Apocalypse Keys, etc.
 

We do not have to wonder what the purpose of going to the dice is in Blades in the Dark because John Harper tells us (and it is certainly not to elide):



It might be the focus of some games to rely on mechanics for things they do not want to dig into the details of, but that is not how any Narrativist design I am familiar with works at all. We create mechanics for the things we most care about, the things we do not rely on consensus for, the things we want to be tense.

If that prowl roll was supposed to elide it would not be subject to all sorts of factors that determine position and effect, all sorts of mechanics that might come into play, etc. We go to the dice because we care enough to not decide, to let the dice decide for us. And not because there is uncertainty, but because there is tension.
Hmm this sounds exactly like 'the rules elide' to me. The point of that phrase isn't that we don't care about things we have mechanics for. It's that the rules allow us to adjudicate things we don't want to do adjudicate via conversation. In this case, we want to do it via dice to add tension.
 

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