• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Thanks for sharing Baker’s post. Here’s a detailed breakdown of how his narrativist dynamic compares to my Living World sandbox approach:


1. “The PCs have vision, self-interests, best interests, passion, an ideological commitment: something they want and care about.”

Narrativism:

The players are expected to create characters who are emotionally charged and driven. Their goals aren’t just “get gold” or “explore”, they want something meaningful, personal, and often moral or ideological.

Living World Sandbox:
Players are free to create whatever kind of character they want. Some have passionate goals. Others are wandering adventurers, mercenaries, or opportunists. The system doesn’t assume or require emotional depth, it leaves that up to the players.

Differences:
Narrativism expects passion.
Living World allows it, but doesn’t require it.

2. “Their passions put them in conflict with others — other PCs or other NPCs.”
Narrativism:

The game is built so that passionate goals naturally create drama and conflict. That conflict is central to play—escalating situations, hard choices, and consequences.

Living World Sandbox:
Conflict arises from how the world works and what different NPCs or factions want. Players may enter into conflict, but it’s not required. A party might avoid conflict for several sessions, explore ruins, negotiate, or travel. There’s no “theme pressure.”

Differences:
Narrativism drives players into personal conflict.
Living World lets conflict happen if it makes sense.

3. “Both sides are fit — they have the ability to pursue their goals.”

Narrativism:

The game ensures that characters and their opponents are ready for the conflict; emotionally, physically, and narratively. It’s about dramatic momentum.

Living World Sandbox:
Characters and factions are as “fit” as makes sense in-world. Some might be outmatched. Others may have no chance. The world isn’t balanced to produce interesting drama, it’s balanced to be a logical, persistent place.

Differences:
Narrativism adjusts the world to support the story.
Living World lets the world stand on its own.

4. “Nobody pre-plans how it turns out. Play to find out what happens.”
Narrativism:

The players and GM don’t plan an ending. Instead, they follow the passions and conflicts of the characters to create a meaningful, dramatic result.

Living World Sandbox:
Same here, no pre-planned outcomes. But instead of following character drama, the game follows world events and logical consequences. Players do what they want; the world reacts accordingly. The focus isn’t on “what kind of person are you,” but “what happens because of what you did.”

Similarities:
Both avoid pre-scripting outcomes.

Differences:
But Narrativism centers on character drama,
while Living World centers on world simulation.

Wrapping it up
Some might say, “Intent doesn’t matter if the outcome looks narrativist.”
But that’s a category error, confusing correlation with creative goals.
I’ve consistently pointed out the difference in structure and intent, even when the outcomes may superficially resemble each other. Just because similar events can happen doesn’t mean they come from the same design philosophy or play dynamic.
I wish I could love this twice! What a wonderful exploration of the differences and similarities between these playstyles! I certainly now have a better understanding of why I like one and dislike the other. Thank you!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think adjacent in terms of technique, but likely not in terms of creative goals. Ambition and greed can be fine passions after all when they are not just justification for adventures. The primary question for me is if our conception of who these characters are is a question, an answer or if we do not particularly care either way. What separates Narrativism out as like a creative goal is that when we say a character is greedy or honorable we then create situations that put that to the test intentionally. Prove it is basically the creed.

okay, that part is very different
 

But there is a difference between deciding these things based on what seems like it is plausibly the case (i.e. estimating the time it takes normal humans to hike through wilderness to figure out how long it takes the party to get there, using seasons to decide if the pass is snow-blocked or if the snow has melted, etc) and deciding it because you want something to happen, because you want to control pacing, etc. And of course something like travel time is normally handled by mosts systems anyways.

There may be a difference, yes. But depending on the specific circumstances, there are also similarities. If I'm looking to get to a specific city for some reason, and the way is blocked by the frozen mountain pass, then I'm constrained. It's not an unreasonable constraint... but will it feel different to me if the GM determined the pass was frozen based on his calculation of time and the season or if he just wanted to make it harder for me to get there? The player may not know or care about the difference. He may not even know the process the GM used to determine it.

Now... it's very likely that you have players that are comfortable with this type of game. And I expect that this is where all the mentions about trust come from. And on the one hand, I absolutely understand. If you are playing this game, and want the GM to be making all these decisions, you want to trust that he's doing so based on plausibility and causality and so on. That he's not putting his thumb on the scale, so to speak.

When it comes to this stuff, my area of concern as a GM is that my decision making is influenced to some extent no matter what. When faced with a set of plausible outcomes, if it's up to me to pick one, then I am picking the way things go. That my decision was based on that being the most likely isn't really different from me picking it because it sounded the most exciting. It's still the GM deciding how things will go.

And to be clear... this is not bad. In my Mothership campaign, I made several decisions like this. Many were based on what makes the most sense. A few times, it was definitely about what I thought was the most exciting. None of these are bad reasons for a GM to make a decision. But they both involve the GM directing play... even if they have a different motive for doing so.

Another way to do it, which is not about lack of trust, is to have clear and open mechanics for this stuff. And it's very possible that a living world GM would use such procedures, but from what I've gathered from our discussions, even those procedures may be flexible or ad hoc, depending on circumstances. What I'd advocate for is clear and player facing procedures. To me, this is what maximizes player agency within this game environment. That the information be available and or known to the player, with as little (Ideally nothing) that remains solely within the GM's head.

The reason for this is not lack of trust. It is instead about ensuring that the players have a chance to know and influence the outcome in some way, and that the outcome is then determined not by GM Fiat (however informed that may be by the events of play and the setting) but rather by procedure. That the GM disclaim decision making in these moments.

On time passage, in a sandbox in my experience this is one of the biggest differences than other games. That is something that usually is kind of negotiated. When I am running a sandbox I am very cautious about simply announcing the passage of time, because I don't want to gloss over anything the players might want to do

I expect you're right that this is a big difference. In my game of Spire, and in the game I just started of Blades, we elide time quite often. I don't think this is as potentially problematic as you imply. If you gloss over something... if you jump ahead to Wednesday and a player says "hey, I was hoping to do X on Tuesday..." then you just back it up and let them do what they wanted on Tuesday. We can control the flow of time... speed it up, slow it down, back it up, do it again... it's all malleable.

Now, this may not work at all times... certainly there are times when the passage of time becomes more specific, and we want it to be so. In Blades, this is typically during the Score phase of play. Once that begins, generally then we're playing moment to moment. Of course, the game does allow Flashbacks, but those are exceptions.

Spire lacks distinct play phases like Score and Downtime, though, so when we did it there, it'd always be by consensus. I'd say something like "Okay, so you guys schedule a meeting for tomorrow at noon with Mr. Frost... is there anything anyone wants to do before then, or should we jump to the meeting?" This works quite well, and puts things in the hands of the players.

This is probably one of my big takeaways from games like Blades and Spire... that we don't need to narrate every minute of the characters' lives. That we can jump around a bit, and fill in blanks as needed, and still have functional play and consistency with the events of play. It also allows us to focus on the more interesting bits of play, and not spend so much time waiting for those to emerge.
 

But when you describe your campaign you don't talk about techniques. You point to properties of the fiction: the world is persistent (but so is the world of BitD), and the world is governed by in-world logic (but so is the world of BitD). This makes it unclear what you think the contrast consists in, and tends to generate the impression that you think others' fictions don't have those properties - ie that those properties are in some fashion unique to, or distinctive of, your setting.
I wouldn't assume that's what a poster means unless they say that.
 

I wish I could love this twice! What a wonderful exploration of the differences and similarities between these playstyles! I certainly now have a better understanding of why I like one and dislike the other. Thank you!
Glad to have helped. :):)
One useful thing I got out of the process of participating in this thread was a framework on which to structure my thoughts and observations on how I handle my own particular take on sandbox campaigns, the living world. I always felt a step behind in articulating what it is I do and why I do it, compared to what has been written about Forge/Narrative/Other RPG theories. Now I am confident I can write something that can bring it together into a coherent whole.

Hopefully that will also be useful for other folks like yourself in figuring out how to structure your own particular take.

After I get my other projects done. :D
 

In this case, it's wrong. We know the established and common usage for railroad, and it isn't @pemerton's private definition. Nor is it any other AI generated definition. The common usage has been and still is the common usage for the term. AI error doesn't change that.

Only if huge numbers of people make that choice. If an individual or small group does, it dies out with them and nothing changes at all. In this case, nothing has changed. The common usage of the term railroading is still how the overwhelming majority of folks use it.

But we know the correct common usage, so we know it is wrong in this instance.

It's a pointless argument. It's like me saying that to me "ass" really means "Anonymous Someone Somewhere", meaning anyone on the internet that I've never met in person. Now, I know full well that people will tell me that if I tell them that they're an ass that they won't like it and will explain what the term means in common usage. At that point I can either accept that my definition doesn't match anyone else's and that people find it offensive and stop using it or I can keep using it. If I continue to use it the only reason I can think I would do so is because while I fully understand the meaning I don't care and I'm just using it in an antagonistic manner in order to provoke responses.

Personally? I wouldn't choose to continue using it. But at this point I can only say that pemerton is just an anonymous someone somewhere. ;)
 

No, it's not misdirection. The "in world realism" can constrain "the narrative". A frozen mountain pass prevents travel to the location the PCs want to get to... okay, how do we determine when they can get there? When is the pass clear enough for travel? How long off is that? Who decides how quickly time moves? What else might happen while they wait? How long will those things take to resolve? And so on.

As the GM, you have massive amount of influence over these things. And this is before we even consider the actual procedures that are meant to handle some of these things.

And to be clear... there's nothing wrong with a GM having that control. But let's not act like it's the world that's making decisions.



I pointed out an example and explained why it seemed the way it seemed. Others have also pointed it out.

If it wasn't your intention, you could just say that. If it was, then you could own it rather than accuse me of fallacies.



I don't care if you apologize or not. You can make any claims you like about games. You can criticize any game you like. I may disagree with you, but I won't say you need to apologize.

My point in highlighting the bit where you casually dismissed the realism of one game to highlight yours was just that you seemingly did it without even meaning it. And I can't tell based on your posts above if you meant it or not. You argue that my point was 6 types of fallacy, but then you close by saying you're not going to apologize for drawing contrasts.

But if you were drawing the contrast, then I wasn't imagining things... that'd get rid of at least three of the fallacies!

As for fear of analysis... that's interesting. All I said is that I think sandbox play as you're describing it is largely GM-driven, and provided the reasons why. You then claimed I said that sandbox play was "ideologically suspect" (talk about fallacies!).

I've run and continue to run many types of games. Not just one type. What I've noticed is that although the players have more freedom in what you're calling sandbox play, it's still very GM-focused. It relies on significant prep on the part of the GM. The players determine what they engage with and how... but everything they're engaging with is material made up by the GM prior to play. This is not a bad thing by any means. There is more freedom in this type of game than in an Adventure Path or similar model. I just think there are still similarities to that kind of game as well.
Can I ask why you want to talk about that? Clearly the GM-driven parts of sandbox play are not a problem for enthusiasts, and the focus on sandbox in contrast to a more AP-structured style focuses on player freedom to make choices and not on the fact that the GM still creates the setting and controls things outside of the PCs. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
 

That is something Narrativist design does better. I can accommodate PvP conflict in my Living World Campaigns, but that runs into the same bandwidth issue I talked about earlier. So while it has happened, it is infrequent.
I used to run a lot of mafia campaigns heavily inspired by things like Goodfellas and Donnie Brasco (where there is an underlying paranoia because the person who kills you is likely to be someone very close to you, even a player character). And I feel like there is a lot of cross-over with that in my wuxia campaigns. Wuxia is normally about martial heroes using their martial abilities to protect the weak and seek justice, but it is a world populated by people you might fight in a gangster film, and some wuxia movies and stories lean into this darker element. And even in heroic stories, sect wars and cycles of violence due to revenge are a common occurrence. One movie that stands out for me is Duel for Gold, which kind of has a Hateful Eight vibe, in that all the characters are in it in for themselves and willing to kill each other for the prize on the other side (it came out ages before Hateful Eight). Another is Killer Clans. In my campaigns I am very open to players betraying one another, being the bad guys, etc. So there has been some PvP. It isn't usually every man for himself, but sometimes things like ambition lead people down that road. I think to pull it off, you have to have buy-in from all the players and it becomes very important to be as impartial as you can possibly be.
 


The point of your original post seems to be to argue with @Bedrockgames who was using game design correctly to conflate game design with setting and playstyle, and then wonder why you'd try to separate setting and playstyle from setting and playstyle. That or you think game design, setting design and playstyle are all intertwined.

If it's the former, then I don't know what to say.

If it's the latter, then I strongly disagree with it. While there are exceptions, for the most part all three components are separate from one another.

I can take D&D and make whatever setting I want and run various playstyles. I couldn't do that if the mechanics of the game(game design) were intertwined with the other two, or even one of the other two.

Sandbox(playstyle) can be combined with just about any setting, and with many different rule sets, including both narrative and traditional games. We can do that because they are not mixed together, and therefore there's nothing to separate. They are layered one on top of the other, not mixed.

I've clarified it a few times for you now, Max. I'll do it one more time.

The GM makes decisions about the game that he's going to run. Not the game system he uses, though that's involved, but the campaign or one-shot or whatever it is he's going to run. The game.

The things the GM creates for the game... NPCs, locations, factions, creatures, items... all of those serve two purposes. One is as an element of the fiction. The other is as an element of the game. When the GM is making decisions and creating things, he should be thinking about both.

If you want to agree or disagree with that point, feel free.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top